whitem
New Member
Posts:7
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| 01 Aug 2009 01:11 PM |
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Our house was built 18 years ago with professionally installed SIPs. The walls are great, except now we have a major problem in a bathroom. The bathtub is surrounded by ceramic tile. We didn't realize right away that there was a leak in the grout. When the repairman started removing the tile to fix the problem, a large section of the inside wooden part of the SIP wall completely separated from the foam. Now there is a four foot high section on the back wall of the tub where all we see is the foam insulation. The inside OCB part of the wall dissolved and we don't know what to do to fix it.
We've had several repairmen look at the SIP wall but they have no idea how to repair it. The only suggestion was to completely remove the tub, build a new wall with 2x4's in front of the SIP, then put in a new tub.
I have looked around for how to repair SIP walls, but have found nothing. The SIP walls were custom made and came with the drywall already on the walls when they were delivered. I thought the bathroom walls were waterproof, but I was wrong. Can SIP walls be repaired?
thanks!
Mary
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 01 Aug 2009 01:23 PM |
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Mary;
SIP walls can be repaired , BUT..............
You need an engineer, it sounds like a serious problem. Being a leak caused structural damage ,your insurance should cover the costs (less ded)
Please don't let a handyman or inexperinced carpenter make repairs |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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whitem
New Member
Posts:7
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| 01 Aug 2009 05:57 PM |
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Thank you for your response. I have the original papers from when we built the house, but since it's been 18 years I have no idea who to contact about repairs. How would I find an engineer who could fix this?
Mary
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 01 Aug 2009 07:11 PM |
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Posted By whitem on 08/01/2009 5:57 PM
Thank you for your response. I have the original papers from when we built the house, but since it's been 18 years I have no idea who to contact about repairs. How would I find an engineer who could fix this?
Mary
Mary; start with what you have, the original supplier or installer may be able to direct you to an engineer with SIPs expertise. I still occasionally have contact with some of my customers from over 20 years back |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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JeffD
Basic Member
Posts:282
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| 01 Aug 2009 07:46 PM |
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Mary,
This is the repair I would do. Remove all damaged OSB. Create a rectangular or square opening for a patch. Let the foam dry out. From a piece of OSB the same thickness as the panel skin, make a patch that fits very very tight to the opening. Using a poly-urethane glue, coat the entire surface of the foam and patch piece. Install the patch making sure the it is kept compressed to the foam until the glue is cured. Purchase Simpson MP36 mending plates from you hardware store. You will need as many as it will take to put them end to end around the edge of the joint between the original panel skin and the patch piece. Install each mending plate lengthwise on center with the joint and embedding it completely in poly-urethane glue. Good luck. |
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| Metal SIP Building Designer<br>jeff@panelfusion(dot com) See us on Facebook |
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SimonD
Basic Member
Posts:113
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| 02 Aug 2009 01:41 AM |
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These are what he's talking about... |
 Attachment: Untitled.jpg
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| Building Designer<br>PANELfusion, LLC, Tampa, FL<br>simon@panelfusion(dot com)<br>"Metal SIP Advocate" |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 02 Aug 2009 05:25 AM |
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Jeff/Simon;
since none of us can visually see the damage, their may be more destructive testing necessary to determine the full extent of the damage.
I certainly do not advise a DIY remedy, with at least one half of the structural component gone. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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ecobuilder
Basic Member
Posts:102
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| 04 Aug 2009 11:36 PM |
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How to fix this depends on what type of SIP's you have. Is this a true SIP's envelope or a stresskin design with post and beam frame work? I just finished (yesterday) repairing a SIP's roof that had leaked for several years. The osb was completely rotted in several places and needed to be replaces. This was over a post and beam structure and the SIP's were just nailed into the beams and had no real structural element. This roof required the rotted osb to be removed and replaced then tar paper installed and a cold roof system was used to cover the entire roof. We screwed 2x4's trough the panels into the beams, some locations required the screws to be placed from the inside out into the 2x4's were beams were not located and then re-plywooded and new roof shingles installed. If this had been a true SIP's structure and this had happened the panels would have needed to be completely removed and new ones put in place. As someone else stated and if this is a true SIP's structure an engineer should be called in to help resolve this but if it's a post and beam with SIP's over them you can fix it without the need for the engineer. I would suggest contacting the manufacturer of the panels and see if they can direct you to someone local who is familiar with SIP's. Good luck and next time waterproof your walls with membrane before retiling them. Tom Pittsley [email protected]www.eebt.org |
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| "Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is." Jackson Brown |
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whitem
New Member
Posts:7
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| 10 Aug 2009 06:19 PM |
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I will try contacting the supplier. Thank you for your help.
Mary
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whitem
New Member
Posts:7
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| 10 Aug 2009 06:24 PM |
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Thank you for the information. I was wondering if something like that could be done.
The bathtub is in the corner of the house, so one side of the area that needs repair is at the corner. Are there mending plates for corners?
Mary
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whitem
New Member
Posts:7
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| 10 Aug 2009 06:24 PM |
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Thanks for the pictures! They helped me a lot.
Mary
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whitem
New Member
Posts:7
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| 10 Aug 2009 06:29 PM |
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I will contact an engineer before doing anything else. I do not know what the structural effects are of the damage. The wall affected is on the second floor, on the corner of the house. I'd have to dig up pictures of when the house was built, but I do remember that the panels were very wide. To replace the entire SIP would probably be a huge job.
I had no idea that a wall could melt away like that. Once repaired, I will not put tile back on the wall. I'll buy waterproof tub walls that go to the ceiling. If I had known something like this might happen, I would never have installed tile.
Thanks for your help.
Mary
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whitem
New Member
Posts:7
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| 10 Aug 2009 06:32 PM |
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I am pretty sure they are true SIPs. They were installed with a crane and there were no posts except near a bay window. The windows were cut out after the panels were installed.
I will contact the manufacturer. I thought the walls were waterproofed, but obviously not. I won't re-tile them. I'll install a waterproof tub surround or something instead.
Thanks!
Mary
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 10 Aug 2009 07:40 PM |
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. I thought the walls were waterproofed, It is a common misconception that tile /grout is waterproof, if it was regular drywall directly applied to the osb, then it was the builders error. It should have had at least MR board or better |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 11 Aug 2009 12:14 PM |
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Mary,
After you repair the structural wall, then if you never want another leak through the tile, consider using this product behind the tile. It not only waterproofs the wall but it also allows some movement of the tile without cracking the tile: www.schluter.com
By the way when I suggest someone to consider a product, I do not benefit from any sales. In fact, since I retired from teaching in Architecture, I donate most of my time to interesting projects. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 23 Oct 2013 10:47 AM |
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We have a 5yr old SIPS house on the Oregon coast. It has 25-90% moisture readings in its walls. The exterior OSB is waterlogged or seriously eroded. Is there a remedy for this condition OR must the entire SIPS walls be replaced? Thanks. Paul |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 23 Oct 2013 12:34 PM |
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Posted By pferris on 23 Oct 2013 10:47 AM
We have a 5yr old SIPS house on the Oregon coast. It has 25-90% moisture readings in its walls. The exterior OSB is waterlogged or seriously eroded. Is there a remedy for this condition OR must the entire SIPS walls be replaced?
Thanks.
Paul
The SIP is most likely garbage and must be ripped out. I assume they DID NOT install a rain screen or use furring strips on the exterior cladding between the SIP? When will the wood SIP industry finally just wise up and tell people that furring SIPs is mandatory? Especially for roofs and walls in wet climates. |
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Torben
Basic Member
Posts:216
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| 23 Oct 2013 01:25 PM |
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You will also want to reinstall your tile in a different manner. Grout always leaks eventually. The problem is what you have behind the tile. You need a layered drainage path or vapor barrier behind the tile that protects your repaired SIP wall. Schluter is probably the gold standard for doing this. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 23 Oct 2013 05:14 PM |
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get an engineer, it cannot be analyzed on thos forum |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 24 Oct 2013 10:13 PM |
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LBear,
I agree: my SIPS walls are toast and must be removed, wall by wall.
Being burned once, what is the preferred SIPS wall composition AND what are the OPTIMAL installation materials to offset air, water, wind, and humidity penetration on the Oregon coast? In other words, who's done SIPS that have lasted?
I would hate being burnt twice!
Paul Ferris
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 24 Oct 2013 10:16 PM |
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LBear,
I forgot to ask about the HIV air exchange units and are there remote controls for offsetting humidity when we are not there. Paul Ferris |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 25 Oct 2013 04:34 PM |
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Posted By pferris on 24 Oct 2013 10:13 PM
LBear,
I agree: my SIPS walls are toast and must be removed, wall by wall.
Being burned once, what is the preferred SIPS wall composition AND what are the OPTIMAL installation materials to offset air, water, wind, and humidity penetration on the Oregon coast? In other words, who's done SIPS that have lasted?
I would hate being burnt twice!
Paul Ferris
Every wood framed home needs to have a rain screen/furring channel on the walls between the exterior cladding and OSB, with OSB SIPs, that is mandatory. The same goes for OSB SIP roofs. If you don't install furring channels, especially in a rainy/humid climate, you are asking for future trouble. Building Science has an excellent article explaining on how it should be done. The OSB SIP industry likes to play dumb when it comes to furring the SIP roofs to provide proper drying of the OSB SIPs. They claim it is not necessary because it's a bad "selling point" for them since SIP furring requires additional $$ expenses than a standard OSB & truss roof would not have. One can always go with steel SIPs for the roof and not have to deal with the water issue but since you are at the Oregon coast, OSB SIPs are readily available in that area. |
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 03 Nov 2013 09:51 PM |
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I've met with lawyers, forensic building inspectors, engineers, and a SIP rep. for 2 1/2 hrs. And there is NO CONSENSUS on how to fix SIPS walls that showed 25-90% moisture in their outside OSB.
All agreed that the water rotted SIPS will not be removed but fixed.
Has anyone ever heated off the bad OSB, heated channels to add extra 2 bys in the walls, foamed the wood seams , add plywood, a permeable membrane, 3/8th inch rain screen, then cedar shakes? If so, who, when, and how durable is the fix.
Waiting to hear in Oregon.
PF
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 04 Nov 2013 06:14 AM |
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Posted By pferris on 03 Nov 2013 09:51 PM
I've met with lawyers, forensic building inspectors, engineers, and a SIP rep. for 2 1/2 hrs. And there is NO CONSENSUS on how to fix SIPS walls that showed 25-90% moisture in their outside OSB.
All agreed that the water rotted SIPS will not be removed but fixed.
Has anyone ever heated off the bad OSB, heated channels to add extra 2 bys in the walls, foamed the wood seams , add plywood, a permeable membrane, 3/8th inch rain screen, then cedar shakes? If so, who, when, and how durable is the fix.
Waiting to hear in Oregon.
PF
SAY WHAT? never heard of that , but it will be interesting to hear more I would be real interested to hear how they would keep the wall from collapsing when the skin is removed was the foam checked for moisture content? |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 04 Nov 2013 08:50 AM |
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It would be interesting to define "bad osb" in terms of original and current strength. For example, I could imagine osb with minor damage where it would be better to get it dry and cover it with another sheet (glued and screwed). Or osb that is so damaged that it has to be cut out since it prevents a useful bond to the foam.
No doubt that if you add enough wood (like 2x4 furring every 16"), you can make it as strong as a non-SIP wall. Any remaining strength in the SIP is then a bonus. |
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 05 Nov 2013 10:22 PM |
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Gents,
Sorry for the repeated email.
To answer you both, there is NO standard on water moisture content on the outside OSB. Residual strength? How well a 25% water soaked SIPS wall hold up overtime?Remember the moisture contents vary from 25%- 90%. But there is serious erosion on the windward side,and the OSB is so eroded that the cedar shakes fly off!
1) If the the internal OSB is good ( this hasn't been assessed), then the outside,bad OSB can be skinned. Perhaps.This technique remains to be tested and it won't be by me. I want both of you to know that there are NO standard protocol for SIPS wall repair. As the SIPS rep said," It depends."
2) So, how do you assess rain- sogged SIPS walls for their integrity AFTER they dry out? Again I don't want to be the guinea-pig on my house.
I fell like throwing up my hands, reverting to my Viet vet mentality and saying " ______ it." But, that's too easy!Tell me what you think. thanks PF |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 06 Nov 2013 06:54 AM |
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Posted By pferris on 05 Nov 2013 10:22 PM
Gents,
Sorry for the repeated email.
To answer you both, there is NO standard on water moisture content on the outside OSB. Residual strength? How well a 25% water soaked SIPS wall hold up overtime?Remember the moisture contents vary from 25%- 90%. But there is serious erosion on the windward side,and the OSB is so eroded that the cedar shakes fly off!
1) If the the internal OSB is good ( this hasn't been assessed), then the outside,bad OSB can be skinned. Perhaps.This technique remains to be tested and it won't be by me. I want both of you to know that there are NO standard protocol for SIPS wall repair. As the SIPS rep said," It depends."
2) So, how do you assess rain- sogged SIPS walls for their integrity AFTER they dry out? Again I don't want to be the guinea-pig on my house.
I fell like throwing up my hands, reverting to my Viet vet mentality and saying " ______ it." But, that's too easy!Tell me what you think. thanks PF
pferris, allowable moisture content is an easy internet search, OSB is wood , normal moisture content is 5% - 15% , over 20% can support mold growth, over 28% means decay will start replacing with another SIP wall may not be practical, you may need to replace with woods studs/sheathing/insulation. But it needs replaced it is not good structurally or healthwise the interior side should be tested immediately , as it could be a health concern |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 09 Nov 2013 02:35 PM |
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The inside OSB on our SIPS wall problem are good. Further exams reveal moldy floor joists 2 feet back from the rim joint. Buddying up the floor joists can remedy them. B ut how do you kill the mold without killing ourselves or breathing moldy,residual air?
So now, back to my original question: There is no information from the SIPS manufacturer on how to repair these SIPS walls. What have other contractors done to remedy this situation? Is there a contact in the Northwest who's had the EXPERIENCE of repairing SIPS walls?
I need specifics at this point.
Thanks.
Paul Ferris
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 09 Nov 2013 03:39 PM |
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Posted By pferris on 09 Nov 2013 02:35 PM
The inside OSB on our SIPS wall problem are good. Further exams reveal moldy floor joists 2 feet back from the rim joint. Buddying up the floor joists can remedy them. B ut how do you kill the mold without killing ourselves or breathing moldy,residual air?
So now, back to my original question: There is no information from the SIPS manufacturer on how to repair these SIPS walls. What have other contractors done to remedy this situation? Is there a contact in the Northwest who's had the EXPERIENCE of repairing SIPS walls?
I need specifics at this point.
Thanks.
Paul Ferris
Paul, mold remediation is not a do it yourselfer project, certain molds are lethal, you need to call in the pros in our state a licesed building contractor cannot remove more than about 10 sq. ft. with out hiring a professional. Go to the SIPA website (sips.org), there are 54 design professionals listed with at least 4 in your area. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 11 Nov 2013 11:02 AM |
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Chris,
Thanks for the advice. This will be part of my settlement.
But, I find it ALMOST unreasonable, that no one knows how to durably repair water soaked outer OSB board on a SIPS wall panel?
Even the SIPS manufacturer is stumped.
Happy Veterans' DAY. l'M ONE.
Thanks for your advice. Maybe somebody knows how to repair these wall panels but it's too experimental at this point.
I will persevere though because it's my house.
Paul Ferris
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 11 Nov 2013 04:16 PM |
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Posted By pferris on 11 Nov 2013 11:02 AM
Chris,
Thanks for the advice. This will be part of my settlement.
But, I find it ALMOST unreasonable, that no one knows how to durably repair water soaked outer OSB board on a SIPS wall panel?
Even the SIPS manufacturer is stumped.
Happy Veterans' DAY. l'M ONE.
Thanks for your advice. Maybe somebody knows how to repair these wall panels but it's too experimental at this point.
I will persevere though because it's my house.
Paul Ferris
First, I would like to thank you for your service to this country, it is greatly appreciated! Thank you! In regards to the SIP repair. A SIP is like an "I-beam" and your SIP has damaged the top of the I-beam portion and the question is can it be repaired or does it have to be replaced? That's where the experts come in but it is uncharted territory for most. They seem to think it can be repaired and I am sure that they are proceeding cautiously but with confidence that it can be repaired. Chris Kavala is the SIP expert here so he would know best. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 11 Nov 2013 08:10 PM |
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Posted By pferris on 11 Nov 2013 11:02 AM
Chris,
Thanks for the advice. This will be part of my settlement.
But, I find it ALMOST unreasonable, that no one knows how to durably repair water soaked outer OSB board on a SIPS wall panel?
Even the SIPS manufacturer is stumped.
Happy Veterans' DAY. l'M ONE.
Thanks for your advice. Maybe somebody knows how to repair these wall panels but it's too experimental at this point.
I will persevere though because it's my house.
Paul Ferris
Paul, there is no repairing bad OSB, there is ony replacement with a new SIP wall or a new stud wall |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 11 Nov 2013 10:12 PM |
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Chris,
Are you sure there is no repairing a bad SIPS wall? What's your evidence? The folks I'm dealing with want 1) SIPS repair 2) standard wall replacement. P Ferris
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 12 Nov 2013 12:02 AM |
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Posted By pferris on 11 Nov 2013 10:12 PM
Chris,
Are you sure there is no repairing a bad SIPS wall? What's your evidence? The folks I'm dealing with want 1) SIPS repair 2) standard wall replacement. P Ferris
Paul, What's your evidence that it can be done? the problem with analyzing on a forum is you can't see it I've been in the SIPs business for 20 years and have been a GM for an OSB & Steel SIPs mfg., thats my evidence the SIPs manufacturer is not "stumped", they know they are in deep do do and are not wanting to bear the cost of full replacement, the folks you are dealing with are looking for the easy way, not the right way I would certainly build a standard wall first, instead of trying some experiment most likeley there is some water penetration into the EPS as well from long term exposure this will always be trapped in the wall cavity if you go along with a sub-standard repair, that is your choice |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 12 Nov 2013 10:28 AM |
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Chris,
I am sorry for calling your reputation to task. I apologize. You eclipse me in experience. Hands down.
Of course, I do not want a sub standard repair on my SIPS house. No experiments there.
The builder's insurance will want to settle cheaply, i.e., repair the SIPS,etc. SIPS replacement is out of the question.
So rebuilding MONEY is the ISSUE.
I will call for a standard frame construction that will be a 24 R value in its walls.
Wish me luck. And, thanks again for the hard evidence. I will inform you how it turns out.
Be well,
Paul Ferris
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 12 Nov 2013 12:46 PM |
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Paul,
I hope you have an attorney guiding you thru this negotiation, the notion that you should accept anything less than what you bought is ridiculous |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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pferris
New Member
Posts:10
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| 13 Nov 2013 10:49 AM |
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Yes. We have a lawyer who has an opposing lawyer who wants to limit our loss. There will be a battle for the final settlement. I'm just not sure that the final net money after lawyers fees, etc., will be sufficient to rebuild the walls to my expectations and what we paid for as 24 R values SIPS walls. I have 2 kittens and loving wife to keep me sane.
I know I will get what I fight for, but compromise always looms.
This will be my last entry.
Thanks again for your helpful responses.
Paul Ferris |
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