Whats the truth about PU Off Gassing?
Last Post 07 Oct 2010 12:37 PM by Dana1. 25 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 212 > >>
Author Messages
DIYSORNOTUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:6

--
02 Jul 2010 08:43 PM

What's the truth about Polyurethane panels off gassing? It seem that closed cell foam can't off gas unless it's ruptured. It also seems the OSB skins should protect from that.

So, What do the experts say?

cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3664
Avatar

--
03 Jul 2010 05:47 PM
Not sure what you mean about ruptured? I have heard of a rash of Kingspan PU blistering skins because gas had no where to escape. if skin is blistered then it means there is no bond
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
JeffDUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:280
Avatar

--
06 Jul 2010 08:12 PM
I found this at http://www.foam-tech.com/products/urethane_foam/ama_toxicity.htm

Excerpt from "Toxicology of Urea Formaldehyde and Polyurethane Foam Insulation"

by John C. Harris, MD; Barry H. Rumack, MD; Franklin D. Aldrich, MD, PhD

As printed in the Journal of The American Medical Association, Jan. 16, 1981, Vol. 245, No. 3 (Copy of complete study available upon request)
Polyurethane Foams
Background

When toxicity from urea formaldehyde foam insulation became publicly known, the Rocky Mountain Poison Center received numerous calls regarding polyurethane foam. Toxicity of polyurethane foams is restricted to the manufacturing process, except during fires. Each year, many thousands of tons of polyurethane foams are produced for applications ranging from structural members to pillows. When used as structural insulation, polyurethane foam "sandwiches" of outer paneling, foam core, and inner wall are transported to the job site and assembled onto the framework of the building. Because of the high R value of polyurethane forms, this insulation material has become popular for new housing construction.
Technical Aspects

Polyurethane foams may vary in physical state from tough, rigid solids that can be used for insulation, molding, and structural applications to very soft flexible materials that are suitable for seat cushions. Density of foams may range from approximately 8 kg/L to 1kg/L, depending on the purpose for which the foam is designed. Formation of polyurethane foam involves reacting or difunctional or multifunctional alcohol (polyol) with an aromatic isocyanate in the presence of a blowing agent, catalyst, and surfactant.

A fully cured polyurethane foam contains no residual isocyanate or polyol and, in contrast to the urea formaldehyde foams, presents no problems of bleed-off of toxic products. Only fully cured panels are used in home insulation, and there have been no reports of human toxicity caused by this insulation material. For more information about toxins released from insulation during a fire, click here.
Metal SIP Building Designer
jeff@panelfusion(dot com) See us on Facebook
Dick MillsUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:217

--
06 Jul 2010 08:35 PM
So, JeffD, I'm curious as to what you think the snippet that you posted actually says?
panelwrightUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:31

--
07 Jul 2010 07:52 AM
The foam industry uses the term off-gassing to describe the gradual release of the blowing agent trapped in the cells of some foams. Urethane foam has a very high r-value when it's first manufactured. Unfortunately, many salesman use this day-1 number to describe their product's performance. In reality, foams that are susceptible to off gassing have an r-value that is referred to as the "aged" value. Polyurethane foam has an aged r-value of around 6.3 per inch. The addition of a skin on both sides will minimize this slow bleed of the blowing agent. However, I have yet to see a reputable manufacturer claim that the aged value is the same as at the date of manufacturing.

The term off-gassing in this context is often confused with the fear of "toxic" fumes; as in a fire or the recent formaldehyde problem with Katrina trailers. It is an entirely different issue that uses the same term.

and that's the truth,
AL
cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3664
Avatar

--
07 Jul 2010 12:03 PM
Al; 

what is the chemical used for the blowing agent?
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
JeffDUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:280
Avatar

--
08 Jul 2010 09:15 PM
Dick Mills,

Is it not clear from the last paragraph? What point would you like to make?
Metal SIP Building Designer
jeff@panelfusion(dot com) See us on Facebook
Dick MillsUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:217

--
08 Jul 2010 10:08 PM
JeffD, that's a good answer. All of the paragraphs preceding that last one are superfluous, and sound as if one is making an argument (or at least intending to leave the impression) that PU foam off-gases formaldehyde - which is absolutely false. There is no formaldehyde in PU foam. But, it now appears clear that we are both on the same page.
JeffDUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:280
Avatar

--
09 Jul 2010 10:17 AM
In general the topic of PU or PU/PIR or PIR off gassing or more specifically SIPs made with this material is difficult to research. There seems to be a great amount of biased information from the manufacturers and little third party testing reports with conclusive evidence one way or the other.

In my opinion this is the last piece of the puzzle in making PU/PIR metal SIPs the current perfect building material.
Metal SIP Building Designer
jeff@panelfusion(dot com) See us on Facebook
PanelCraftersUser is Offline
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Send Private Message
Posts:680

--
09 Jul 2010 01:29 PM
Posted By JeffD on 09 Jul 2010 10:17 AM

In my opinion this is the last piece of the puzzle in making PU/PIR metal SIPs the current perfect building material.
Sounds like that gas has gotten to you...

....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3664
Avatar

--
10 Jul 2010 12:52 PM
Posted By JeffD on 09 Jul 2010 10:17 AM
In general the topic of PU or PU/PIR or PIR off gassing or more specifically SIPs made with this material is difficult to research. There seems to be a great amount of biased information from the manufacturers and little third party testing reports with conclusive evidence one way or the other.

In my opinion this is the last piece of the puzzle in making PU/PIR metal SIPs the current perfect building material.


Jeff; 

 as you said it is hard to get unbiased  information from manufacturers, it is also not unbiased from distributors, commisioned sales people and people getting finders fees for selling polyurethane metal sips. (you?)

One of our sources that  make both EPS and urethane, recommends that we stay away from PU , not because the offgassing is toxic , but because it cannot permeate the metal skins it blisters and delaminates.

I cannot understand using a core with so much controversy?
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
JeffDUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:280
Avatar

--
10 Jul 2010 09:37 PM
Chris,

I presented some documentation and expressed an opinion. One should not have a problem with that.

Could you share any documentation of blistering PU panels? or are you spreading biased information?
Metal SIP Building Designer
jeff@panelfusion(dot com) See us on Facebook
cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3664
Avatar

--
10 Jul 2010 10:08 PM
Posted By JeffD on 10 Jul 2010 09:37 PM
Chris,

I presented some documentation and expressed an opinion. One should not have a problem with that.

Could you share any documentation of blistering PU panels? or are you spreading biased information?

Jeff;

I have no problem with your opinion, my point is that your opinion is biased just like mine. It is no secret that I favor EPS for reasons I feel are very good. I am not sure why you would conclude that PU is better , other than you have a financial interest in it?

Re blistering , don't take my word for it ........ ask Jelly
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
JeffDUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:280
Avatar

--
11 Jul 2010 09:10 AM
Let me revise my stated opinion because it was a personal bias.

The perfect panel is really a balance of the following factors: r-value, strength, thickness, available length, durability, desired material properties, product certification & testing, local availability, quality, price, lead time, shipping cost, erection availability, erection cost, manufacturer reputation, distributor reputation, salesperson reputation, warranty, ease of handling, ease of erection and probably a few more things I can't thick of right now.
Metal SIP Building Designer
jeff@panelfusion(dot com) See us on Facebook
smasse64User is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:7

--
20 Jul 2010 11:50 AM
well said jeffd....seems there are too many rich people who don't care about cost and even strength,
so the perfect panel means something different to each person. for me, if this industry is ever
to become more than it is, it needs to account for cost as job #1...then worry about all other
'benefits' after that.  steve
The SipperUser is Offline
Basic Member
Basic Member
Send Private Message
Posts:257

--
22 Jul 2010 12:47 PM
So, just to clarify, are you saying that, in your book, "cost" overrides all other considerations in a building project?
The Sipper
cmkavalaUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3664
Avatar

--
23 Jul 2010 06:52 AM
structural integrity and performance overrides all
Chris Kavala
info@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS
FL. Lic # CBC036455, GA Lic. RLCO000624, LA Lic. # CL33845
guestUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:40

--
28 Jul 2010 07:05 PM
http://www.buildinggreen.com/live/index.cfm/2010/6/1/Avoiding-the-Global-Warming-Impact-of-Insulation

This may be helpful information if you have an interest in information derived from scientific investigation
DruidUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3

--
04 Oct 2010 05:11 PM
I attended a seminar recently where the presenter claimed that Polyiso boards shrink and release gas for a considerable time after production. The shrinkage would obviously lead to laps in the insulation and therefore underperformance while the release of gas was considered to be a threat to health. Chris or Jeff can you offer any advice on this? Thanks.
DruidUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:3

--
04 Oct 2010 05:13 PM
Sorry - that should read 'gaps in the insulation......'
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 212 > >>


Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: blacksunshine6973 New Today New Today: 2 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 3 User Count Overall: 28858
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 272 Members Members: 22 Total Total: 294

GreenBuildingTalk

Welcome to GreenBuildingTalk, the largest, most active forum on green building. While you can browse the site as a guest, you need to register in order to post.

Register Member Login Forum Home

Search Directory

Professionals Products

Get Free Quotes

Tell us about your building project and get free quotes from green building professionals. It's fast & easy! Click here to get your free quote.

Site Sponsors

For Advertising Info:
Call 866-316-5300 or 312-223-1600

Professionals Serving Your Area:

Newsletter

Read the latest GBT Newsletter!

Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement  Free Quotes  Professional Directory  Advertising Programs