Anyone have any idea about the life expectancy of this system, can it last 100 years? Is it really capable of supporting a 2 story structure? Any personal experience with this product?

Posted By Bryan1978 on 22 Mar 2015 10:26 PM
Anyone have any idea about the life expectancy of this system, can it last 100 years? Is it really capable of supporting a 2 story structure? Any personal experience with this product?

I would state "yes" that it can last easily over 100 years. It's basically concrete on both sides with an EPS core.

It can support a 2-story.

The main issue is finding QUALIFIED installers. Most of the installers are located in the southeast/Gulf region of the US. It is a rare building method for the USA market.

Alton is the main SCIP guy for this forum. Private Mail him and he will guide you the right way.

I know that SCIPs have been approved for residences with three levels. I do not know the maximum limit. I have used SCIPs and various other technologies. Gulf Concrete Technology has a lot of data available and the personnel are very helpful.

Thanks guys, I put my new home build on hold due to economic conditions here in houston. So I'm looking into other methods of construction now. Not necessarily cheaper but really want to get away from wood.

Do you guys know of an installer in texas?

Posted By Bryan1978 on 22 Mar 2015 10:26 PM
Anyone have any idea about the life expectancy of this system, can it last 100 years? Is it really capable of supporting a 2 story structure? Any personal experience with this product?

Bryan, I just consulted on a SCIP project in Florida that was failing , a 2 story that had the second floor walls bowing outward

I'm sitting in a 10 year old SCIP house right on the ocean (lots of salt in the air). It looks good. On new SCIP construction, I expect that the thickness and mix of the concrete is critical.

Chris,

Do you know who made the Structural Concrete Insulated Panels? Did an engineer "wet stamp" the plans?

Did the project you inspected include a concrete roof?

In my area, code officials are requiring an Engineer of Record (EOR). They require the EOR to make the inspections.

If privacy pertains, you can use my e-mail address.

Posted By Alton on 23 Mar 2015 10:50 AM
Chris,

Do you know who made the Structural Concrete Insulated Panels? Did an engineer "wet stamp" the plans?

Did the project you inspected include a concrete roof?

In my area, code officials are requiring an Engineer of Record (EOR). They require the EOR to make the inspections.

If privacy pertains, you can use my e-mail address.

Alton,
Yes it had an engineers wet stamp, (as all projects in Florida are required to have)the EOR is not required to inspect, it is done by the county and the county has sovereign immunity.
it is one of those jobs that is sickening to witness, the builder , the manufacturer and the EOR have all turned their back on the homeowner and "lawyered up" ..this home is not yet a year old,

Did the second floor walls bow outward after the concrete had set up? Was it a flaw in design?

I have not seen any structural issues with SCIPs but I have seen builders leave the finish too rough that cost more money to correct.

The problem I see is that SCIP's is not "common place" and it requires a specialty contractor with a lot of experience and most importantly an engineer who knows SCIP's and how to design engineer for it. Most structural engineers would be at a loss with SCIPs unless they took specialized training courses after graduating with their undergraduate degree. I would safely state that 95% of structural engineers would not be familiar with SCIPs. A civil engineer might be a little familiar due to shotcrete and its use on highway embankments.

ICF is basically stay-in-place concrete form work. Even then some engineers are at a learning curve with it and over-engineer it because they don't know the system. Overall ICF engineering is straight forward because it's just concrete work with forms that are not removed.

SCIPs is a whole different animal. Shotcrete is something that is done for pools, highway embankments and similar projects but rarely is it done for a structural home/building. Most engineers would probably turn down a job or charge you double and learn on your dime to engineer a project.

Not that SCIP's is bad method of construction but it does pose some serious challenges.

I would be curious to know the OTD price of SCIP's per wall square footage. ICF comes in at $10-$15 per wall sqft OTD pricing. I've heard figures of around $25-$30 for SCIPs but I don't have any secondary proof of those prices.

Alton, what is the going rate of SCIPs?

Price per square foot includes various things. The most important items include the panel, additional wire mesh for tying the panels together, hog rings, gunite/shotcrete mix and labor. Thickest panel ~ $5.00 per Square Foot. Labor ~ $2.70 per SF for walls times 2 to cover both sides. This includes mix. Ceilings ~ $4.00 per SF. Floors/roofs ~ Local concrete rates. Bracing ~ ???, Window/door bucks ~ ??? Using the structural mortar process instead of gunite or shotcrete will vary the price. Local framing crews can install panels by following written instructions. Pool companies can gunite/shotcrete panels. Reinforcement must be inspected before mix is applied. Best to submit plans for quote.

Alton,

So only around $11 per wall square foot for OTD pricing?

Wow, I was off, someone told me that it was in the $20+ range OTD per wall square foot area. They said labor alone to install the forms, brace and then shotcrete them (full labor crew, pumper truck, etc) was $15 per sqft. Then the forms with mesh and rebar were around $5 per sqft and the shotcrete mix was another $5 per sqft. Total was $25 - $30 OTD.

I just know about my projects. Cost may vary by region. I forgot to add freight to my earlier posting and labor for installing the panels which has been reasonable so far. Insteel (GA) and Gulf Concrete Technology (Mississippi) are the only two panels that I have used. Insteel panels from GA are no longer available - See Tridipanel (Mexico).

Posted By Alton on 24 Mar 2015 12:24 PM
I just know about my projects. Cost may vary by region. I forgot to add freight to my earlier posting and labor for installing the panels which has been reasonable so far. Insteel (GA) and Gulf Concrete Technology (Mississippi) are the only two panels that I have used. Insteel panels from GA are no longer available - See Tridipanel (Mexico).

So with labor and freight, would ballpark be around $20 per wall sqft ?

Freight is not bad for the southeast since the panels and structural mortar ship from Long Beach, Mississippi. I do not know the final price but my clients take into account the final price when they compare it to quotes on other technologies.

Hopefully those prices are off, but I haven't got a response from gulf concrete technology yet as I'm waiting to hear back from them. Did find a structural engineer locally that has a few scip homes under their belts. So if all else fails I will contact them to source material and labour.

10$ a foot all in on ICF is not going to happen at a retail rate. A diy'er can approach that if they consider their time spent worth nothing. Plus what lbear either leaves out, or is unaware of, in his comparisons between icf and scip, are interior and exterior finishes. I keep seeing OTD as if it is complete and meaningful. SCIP OTD would be interior plaster, structural wall and insulation, as well as exterior finish. Lbear's OTD on the ICF appears to neglect Sheetrock, paint, and exterior finish. Cost of icf material for structural wall approaches $8.00 per foot say. Cost to install would be similar to material rates at the retail level. Sheetrock and paint will run 2$ to 3$ or better considering level of finish Stucco exterior adds another 6$ to 10$ per foot according to detail. Realistic "OTD" pricing on an ICF home then appears to start at $25 per foot of wall space and $30 is probably a better starting point if you want finishes nicer than builder grade. SCIP IMO should be around the $25 per foot in price as well. There are folks supposedly doing it for less but what I see of the work done indicates they need to charge more money to hire more and better men. Jobs that look like crap and take months to complete will not,do,the industry any favors. Either of these above schemes with the given prices above compete well against the custom framing prices in the area. If you like concrete Then it can be competitive. But throwing out sub $20 per finished foot numbers does a disservice to the burgeoning industries and sets up unrealistic expectations. Leaves a bad taste in the consumers mouth. As if building wasn't hard enough already

Posted By Pietrogreen on 15 May 2015 10:33 PM
 
Realistic "OTD" pricing on an ICF home then appears to start at $25 per foot of wall space and $30 is probably a better starting point if you want finishes nicer than builder grade.

Nobody calculates ICF wall assembly pricing to include interior finishes and exterior finishes.

With that being said, drywall costs are around $1.50 per square foot which includes the drywall, install, mud, and final paint. Exterior single cost synthetic stucco onto ICF/EPS is around $5 per square foot which includes install, product, labor, etc.

ICF and SCIP will be pricier than wood frame but ICF does cost less than SCIP, especially due to SCIP's rarity and lack of qualified installers.

With that being said. Do you have a SCIP home or work for the SCIP industry?

Are those my only two options? Unlike many I have no agenda to push. I posted numbers above from interior finish to exterior finish so a real comparison could be made. When it is quoted in this thread, and elsewhere, that "OTD of scips is $25" then you are quoting with the finishes done. When it is quoted that "OTD of icf is $10 to 15$" then those finishes are not included. And one must question what is being described as "OTD". Much like reading on a vehicle forum, some include tax, tag, and title in OTD price paid and some who are foolish do not. Out the door is out the door. Include it all and fair comparisons may then be made. And to answer your question I am a masonry contractor.