this 28 unit SIP walls, roof , party walls, balcony walkway roof and interior partitions .... all SIP construction chosen for speed, economy and ease of construction

Down in the Bahamas are they required to put drywall/sheetrock onto the interior panels for a fire rating?

Posted By Lbear on 30 May 2015 01:53 AM
Down in the Bahamas are they required to put drywall/sheetrock onto the interior panels for a fire rating?

drywall is not required in the US for a fire rating either ................

no they are not required in the Bahamas
seams like they still have common sense there
the panels are all smooth white

3" panels will be used in a horizontal position in between 4" structural aluminum posts
the structural posts will also support 6" thick balcony panels at a 6 foot span(2 levels) and 3" panels on walkway roof.

Posted By cmkavala on 30 May 2015 07:01 AM


drywall is not required in the US for a fire rating either ................

no they are not required in the Bahamas
seams like they still have common sense there
the panels are all smooth white

I thought it was required. Doesn't code in the US require at least 1/2" drywall?

The tests I have seen online showed two layers of 5/8" drywall to achieve the 30 minute rating.

Without any drywall wouldn't the SIP delaminate from the steel skins at around a steady 230F? Steel is not a good insulator and would transmit any radiant heat from the fire. EPS begins to soften around 190F

According to the PermaTherm website:
Maximum Service Temperature F - Long term exposure 167 F - Intermittent exposure 180 F

COMBUSTIBILITY
Like many construction materials, EPS is combustible. It should not be left exposed to flame or other ignition sources. EPS insulation should be covered with a thermal barrier or otherwise installed in accordance with applicable building code requirements

APPLICATION TEMPERATURES
In roof construction requiring hot asphalt, temperatures should not exceed 250°F at the time for direct contact with EPS insulation. Avoid contact between EPS and high-temperature equipment, such as asphalt kettles and flame sealers.

Warning
EPS products are manufactured with a fire retardant; however, EPS insulation will burn upon exposure to an adequate source of heat or flame. EPS should be kept away from flame or heat sources, including, but not limited to, open flames, welder’s torches, or other sources of heat. Once ignited, EPS will burn with intense heat and smoke. It is the responsibility of the purchaser to warn all of those who may be in contact with EPS insulation about the need to adhere to these requirements when the product is stored on the job site. EPS insulation should not be used in exposed applications.

Posted By Lbear on 30 May 2015 02:11 PM

Posted By cmkavala on 30 May 2015 07:01 AM


drywall is not required in the US for a fire rating either ................

no they are not required in the Bahamas
seams like they still have common sense there
the panels are all smooth white

I thought it was required. Doesn't code in the US require at least 1/2" drywall?

The tests I have seen online showed two layers of 5/8" drywall to achieve the 30 minute rating.

Without any drywall wouldn't the SIP delaminate from the steel skins at around a steady 230F? Steel is not a good insulator and would transmit any radiant heat from the fire. EPS begins to soften around 190F

According to the PermaTherm website:
Maximum Service Temperature F - Long term exposure 167 F - Intermittent exposure 180 F

 APPLICATION TEMPERATURES
In roof construction requiring hot asphalt, temperatures should not exceed 250°F at the time for direct contact with EPS insulation. Avoid contact between EPS and high-temperature equipment, such as asphalt kettles and flame sealers.

Warning
EPS products are manufactured with a fire retardant; however, EPS insulation will burn upon exposure to an adequate source of heat or flame. EPS should be kept away from flame or heat sources, including, but not limited to, open flames, welder’s torches, or other sources of heat. Once ignited, EPS will burn with intense heat and smoke. It is the responsibility of the purchaser to warn all of those who may be in contact with EPS insulation about the need to adhere to these requirements when the product is stored on the job site. EPS insulation should not be used in exposed applications.

Lbear,
the code says absolutely nothing about a fire rating!

What is does say is that EPS shall have a 15 min thermal barrier .............. Period!
Now there are many ways to achieve a 15 min "Thermal Barrier" :
you can use 1/2" drywall if you like, but you can also use intumescent paint or 3/4" wood

in some commercial applications no thermal barrier is required if it is covered with .019 metal (which just happens to be 26ga.)
I have in my possession one hour test approval rating for 2 layers 5/8" type "X" over a metal panel,
if it is needed for a one hour wall, but in normal single family residential application it is not required, it would only be in multi - family residential fire separation.

do not confuse thermal barriers with fire ratings

intumescent paint

What is this stuff like? Is it reasonably priced and a viable choice for interior residential walls?

jonr ....... I haven't priced it out in over 10 years at that time was about the same cost as doing drywall hang & finish, so I would say not a practical substitution for just paint

Posted By cmkavala on 30 May 2015 02:35 PM


Lbear,
the code says absolutely nothing about a fire rating!

What is does say is that EPS shall have a 15 min thermal barrier .............. Period!
Now there are many ways to achieve a 15 min "Thermal Barrier" :
you can use 1/2" drywall if you like, but you can also use intumescent paint or 3/4" wood


do not confuse thermal barriers with fire ratings

It's basically semantics, is it not? Hence the warning from the manufacturer:

COMBUSTIBILITY
Like many construction materials, EPS is combustible. It should not be left exposed to flame or other ignition sources. EPS insulation should be covered with a thermal barrier or otherwise installed in accordance with applicable building code requirements.


The thermal barrier is there to protect it from the heat of a fire. It's not a thermal barrier to protect it from summertime heat. In the above statement they state that EPS is combustible and then they mention flames. They then go on to state that the panel needs to be covered with a thermal barrier. So logic would dictate that the thermal barrier is a barrier to protect the panel from the heat of a fire.

An open flame from even a match or lighter will melt the EPS in an instant. Take a match  or lighter to EPS and it will melt instantly within less than a second.

Now take that lighter to a metal SIP and place it next to the metal skin. It will take a few seconds but the EPS behind it will begin to break its glue bond from the skin, melt and pull away. Even though the actual flame never touches the EPS core, the heat of the flame on the metal skin melts the EPS behind it.

I understand there is a definition distinction between "fire" rating and "thermal" barrier but they are all part of the same issue. The SIP will fail if it is exposed to a high enough heat source. Hence the reason why they state only 167F constant and 180F intermittent maximum temperature exposure on the SIP and anything near or above 250F will compromise the bond of the skin to the EPS.

Posted By Lbear on 30 May 2015 06:43 PM

Posted By cmkavala on 30 May 2015 02:35 PM


Lbear,
the code says absolutely nothing about a fire rating!

What is does say is that EPS shall have a 15 min thermal barrier .............. Period!
Now there are many ways to achieve a 15 min "Thermal Barrier" :
you can use 1/2" drywall if you like, but you can also use intumescent paint or 3/4" wood


do not confuse thermal barriers with fire ratings

It's basically semantics, is it not? Hence the warning from the manufacturer:

COMBUSTIBILITY
Like many construction materials, EPS is combustible. It should not be left exposed to flame or other ignition sources. EPS insulation should be covered with a thermal barrier or otherwise installed in accordance with applicable building code requirements.


The thermal barrier is there to protect it from the heat of a fire. It's not a thermal barrier to protect it from summertime heat. In the above statement they state that EPS is combustible and then they mention flames. They then go on to state that the panel needs to be covered with a thermal barrier. So logic would dictate that the thermal barrier is a barrier to protect the panel from the heat of a fire.

An open flame from even a match or lighter will melt the EPS in an instant. Take a match to EPS and it will melt instantly within less than a second. Take a simple lighter and hold it to the EPS and the foam will melt instantly.

Now take that lighter to a metal SIP and place it next to the metal skin. It will take a few seconds but the EPS behind it will begin to break its glue bond from the skin, melt and pull away. Even though the actual flame never touches the EPS core, the heat of the flame on the metal skin melts the EPS behind it.

I understand there is a definition distinction between "fire" rating and "thermal" barrier but they are all part of the same issue. The SIP will fail if it is exposed to a high enough heat source. Hence the reason why they state only 167F constant and 180F intermittent maximum temperature exposure on the SIP and anything near or above 250F will compromise the bond of the skin to the EPS.

Lbear,
it is not semantics , it is your incorrect interpretation of the code. If they wanted a "fire rating" in the code it would explicitly state that, but it simply does not.

Posted By jonr on 30 May 2015 05:51 PM

intumescent paint

What is this stuff like? Is it reasonably priced and a viable choice for interior residential walls?

FireGuard E-84 r intumescent fire retardant coating/primer is $325/5 gallon bucket at Home Depot: 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/ForceFie.../203582028

http://shieldindustries.com/fireguard_wp/fireguard/fireguard-e-84/

Another option is Flame Guard paint additive for interior flat latex paint.  It costs $30 for enough additive for 1 gallon of paint to achieve a Class A fire rating.  A low cost interior flat latex paint/primer can be found for ~$10/gallon in 5 gallon buckets, so with this method you are looking at ~$40/gallon or ~$200 for 5 gallons.

http://www.hytechsales.com/fire_proofing.html

Posted By arkie6 on 30 May 2015 07:21 PM

FireGuard E-84 r intumescent fire retardant coating/primer is $325/5 gallon bucket at Home Depot: 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/ForceFie.../203582028

http://shieldindustries.com/fireguard_wp/fireguard/fireguard-e-84/

Another option is Flame Guard paint additive for interior flat latex paint.  It costs $30 for enough additive for 1 gallon of paint to achieve a Class A fire rating.  A low cost interior flat latex paint/primer can be found for ~$10/gallon in 5 gallon buckets, so with this method you are looking at ~$40/gallon or ~$200 for 5 gallons.

http://www.hytechsales.com/fire_proofing.html

Would those products work on a factory painted/treated steel SIP surface?

The manufacturer statement states "structural steel" which does not apply to lightweight 26 gauge steel. It also stated the steel must be free of paints and primers. In other words, raw untreated steel. I am assuming the product will not adhere properly to treated steel.

In the end it would fall back on the code department on how they view these items.

Posted By Lbear on 30 May 2015 08:11 PM

Posted By arkie6 on 30 May 2015 07:21 PM

FireGuard E-84 r intumescent fire retardant coating/primer is $325/5 gallon bucket at Home Depot: 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/ForceFie.../203582028

http://shieldindustries.com/fireguard_wp/fireguard/fireguard-e-84/

Another option is Flame Guard paint additive for interior flat latex paint.  It costs $30 for enough additive for 1 gallon of paint to achieve a Class A fire rating.  A low cost interior flat latex paint/primer can be found for ~$10/gallon in 5 gallon buckets, so with this method you are looking at ~$40/gallon or ~$200 for 5 gallons.

http://www.hytechsales.com/fire_proofing.html

Would those products work on a factory painted/treated steel SIP surface?

The manufacturer statement states "structural steel" which does not apply to lightweight 26 gauge steel. It also stated the steel must be free of paints and primers. In other words, raw untreated steel. I am assuming the product will not adhere properly to treated steel.

In the end it would fall back on the code department on how they view these items.

Lbear,
you are still missing the point , a class A fire rating is not required , you merely need a 15 minute thermal barrier, the code allows 3/4" combustible wood as a thermal barrier ,

good progress after 3 days ........

Front Elevation of Project .....................


3" roof panels currently spanning 20 feet still supports men, but will later be supported at mid span with interior bearing partitions

Progress Photo

visited the project 2 days ago and contractor has assembled 2 - 14 unit building in 4 weeks

do you know what duty you paid to get the SIPS into Bahamas? I was charged 45% and I went round and round on this with my broker. he insisted and so I ended up writing a $32000 check to Her Majesty's Customs for a SINGLE FAMILY HOUSE

no they are not required in the Bahamas
seams like they still have common sense there actually bhs building code is pretty much a copy of Dade County FL building code .... and they tax the snot out of SIPS 45% duty plus 7.5% vat so any cost advantage is lost. standard construction materials eg lumber, plywood and sheetrock have almost no import duty but you do pay VAT. for this reason, as best I can tell, there are only a handful of SIP houses in Bhs and those are on the more obscure islands where there was a customs duty "holiday" on construction projects until recently. pity because elec is v. expensive there and the cost of a/c is a major major factor in owning a house. also they have termites and hurricanes, both areas where SIPS can be a better choice than wood and sheetrock. however, you still need lumber (or metal) framing to get 180mph structure and a lot of it.

updated showing windows cut in and balconies installed

stair tower installed