mark p
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:4
 |
| 02/09/2008 2:47 PM |
|
Hello all,
My family and I are soon to begin the process of selecting a builder in SW FL for residential ICF home.
I have contacted a few companies and done a bit of research regarding many of the ICF companies out there; this forum has also been very helpful.
I am trying to find out if an additional vapor barrier should be installed on top of the exterior EPS foam to allow the exterior stucco to be able to drain/dry. I know this drainage plane is needed for stucco applied to wood frame construction, but should it be considered as a means of keeping the stucco (either traditional cement of acrylic stucco) from remaining wet for extended periods.
Knowing that all exteriors will allow water to get behind htem at some point, should this be a concern in FL or is it an unnecessary expense adding to the cost?
Any and all replies from the professionals on board are welcome. I would like to note that two of the ICF manufacturers out there have yet to respond to my inquiry (dating back a few months now).
Regards, Mark P |
|
|
|
|
|
|
irnivek
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:274
|
| 02/09/2008 8:10 PM |
|
Probably a lot of your correct answers would be manufacturer specific, as synthetic vs. conventional vs. super-one-coat-awesome-newest-best-everstucco would have different application specs. and warranties. Sorry not to help,
Kevin |
|
|
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:513
|
| 02/09/2008 11:34 PM |
|
A vapor barrier, no. A weather, or water, resistant barrier (WRB), maybe. Dupont has a Tyvek product called Stucco Wrap they say will go under all types of stucco.
Be careful not to confuse vapor barrier with WRB. If you don't know the difference you still have some research to do. I could give you a short answer but you'll learn and understand it a lot better after you spend another who-knows-how-many hours researching it for yourself.
Just like Kevin said, you will get your best advice from the ICF manufacturer and stucco supplier.
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|
drogers
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:68
|
| 02/11/2008 11:32 AM |
|
I went to a training class put on by these people. Their system does not require a seperate vapor barrier.
http://www.grailcoat.com/ |
|
|
|
|
woulfcc
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:198
|
| 02/11/2008 3:08 PM |
|
I found this for you.http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-013-rain-control-in-buildings/view?searchterm=rain%20screen
I hope it helps,
Scott
Screened-drained walls assume some rainwater will penetrate the outer surface (hence the cladding “screens” rain) and remove this water by designing an assembly that provides drainage within the wall. Since it has often been shown that lap siding and brick veneer leak significant amounts of water, this design approach is the most realistic and practical for such walls.
Some examples of drained wall systems include cavity walls, brick and stone veneer, vinyl siding, two-stage joints, and drained EIFS (Figure 6). It should be noted that the screen is much more than a rainscreen; it must also resist wind, snow, solar radiation, impact, flame spread, etc.
Figure 6: Examples of Drained-Screened Wall Systems
In addition to drainage, supplementary functions, such as a capillary break or water barrier, should be employed to resist further inward movement of water that penetrates the inevitably imperfect cladding (see also BSD-105: Understanding Drainage Planes for more information on drained walls and drainage plane.)
All drained enclosure systems, whether walls, basements, or roofs, must have:
- a screen or cladding
- a drainage gap (often a clear air space),
- a drainage plane (a water repellent plane),
- flashing at the base to direct water outwards, and
- drain holes (weep holes) to allow water out of the drainage gap.
An ICF wall is NOT water proof and need some sort of rainscreen membrane or prevision on them with flashing. Or it will leak! |
|
Changing How the World BUILDS!
Green , Done , Easy
Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin |
|
|
woulfcc
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:198
|
| 02/11/2008 3:29 PM |
|
Sorry about that you are using EFS thats a whole other animal.
I would go with the manufactures recommendations.
Up north here we don't use this all the time because of the cold it will push the stuff off the wall. |
|
Changing How the World BUILDS!
Green , Done , Easy
Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin |
|
|
Quantum
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:262
|
| 02/11/2008 4:10 PM |
|
Have to agree.
And a drainage plane is not only needed for rain drainage (whether EIFS or cementitious stucco), but also any cementitious siding will have condensation behind it which must drain. There is a major lawsuit now against Hardie because their planks are warping, and this is the reason why... no drainage plane was allowed. So vapor barrier (or Tyvek) & flash.
Anyway, it is a Good Idea® to build in an air gap behind the cladding as a form of insulation, particularly in ha-ha-hot climates like FL. |
|
|
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:513
|
| 02/11/2008 8:30 PM |
|
Posted By Quantum on 02/11/2008 4:10 PM
There is a major lawsuit now against Hardie because their planks are warping, and this is the reason why... no drainage plane was allowed.
Any specific info about this you can offer? Google search comes up empty except for the lawsuit from 1996 and one against MaxiPlank in CA.
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|
Quantum
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:262
|
| 02/11/2008 8:50 PM |
|
Sorry, rather than 'major lawsuit' I should have said 'many claims'. Maxi is the class-action suit.
I like Hardie products and was surprised at this problem. It was explained to my why it is happening, but my aged brain forgot and I don't care alot anyway. Something about the layers of fabrication, typical caulk at lower edge, and typical lack of drainage plane.
|
|
|
|
|
mark p
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:4
|
| 02/12/2008 8:54 AM |
|
After reading the insight provided by those who responded, it seems clear that a water barrier/drainage plane should be factored in between the exterior EPS foam and the exterior finish, whether EIFS or traditional stucco.
Knowing that all exterior finishes will allow water intrusion at some point, I do not feel comfortable with any material which states that it should be directly applied to the EPS foam. How does the finish dry out, and while doing so does the water push into the EPS foam? I do not know if there are any studies (or experience) of how well EPS foam stands up to continuous water exposure, and in turn how this may well affect the exterior finish.
Thank you for the post about Stucco - Wrap. I am researching that item and any others I can find.
If there are any ICF manfacturers reading this thread, any comments would be helpful (along with those experienced with stucco claddings, whether traditional or acrylic/EIFS).
Knowledge makes for a better consumer; thanks to all of you.
Mark |
|
|
|
|
walltech
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:474
|
| 02/12/2008 9:18 AM |
|
Mark, I'm not an expert with EFS (exterior finish systems) but has always been my understanding that a drainage plain was not required on ICF. The drainage plain is required on wood exteriors due to obvious reasons. I know Build Block did a recent test with traditional cementitious stucco where they blasted a wall with water for a certain period of time, under labratory conditions. It was monitored by Intertek testing and no intrusion of moisture was found.
I would expect if you called them they may send you the test results for some piece of mind. Personally if it was my home I wouldn't worry about moisture intrusion with ICF, as long as all windows and roof lines where flashed properly. But I'm no expert. Also, you may try Dean Seibert from Windloc corp. he is very knowledgeable in this field.
Dave |
|
|
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:513
|
| 02/12/2008 9:40 AM |
|
Posted By mark p on 02/12/2008 8:54 AM
I do not know if there are any studies (or experience) of how well EPS foam stands up to continuous water exposure, and in turn how this may well affect the exterior finish. Years ago I saw boat docks where the styro blocks they were floating on were somewhat water logged and the dock was down in the water to the point the top side was wet. But that's a case of 24/7 immersion over several years.
A couple of weeks ago I ran my own little experiment. I took a piece of BuildBlock foam and carved a bowl shaped hole in it. I filled the bowl with water and put it under a steady drip of water for about 5 or 6 days so it would stay full. After I dumped the water I used a volt-ohm meter to measure the resistance through the foam. Moisture will give a measurable resistance reading. There was low resistance on the surface that had been wet, naturally. But when I pushed the probes through from the other side of the foam the tips had to be within thousandths of an inch of the wetted surface before I got a reading. This indicates that after several days of constant water exposure the water had hardly penetrated the surface of the foam.
Not a rigorous engineering experiment I admit. But for me it was good enough to convince me that in the dry climate of SW Idaho (~15" rain/yr) there is no compellling reason to put a WRB over the foam. In my windows I'm going to be using bucks with the 2 x 6 inside the foam so the window perimeter is surrounded by the block foam. I won't be putting flashing inside the rough opening like I would if I was using full width wood bucks.
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|
woulfcc
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:198
|
| 02/15/2008 8:38 AM |
|
Just pick up a block that has been out in the rain. The water weighs down the block. ESP will hold water.
Do you guys ever stack block?
|
|
Changing How the World BUILDS!
Green , Done , Easy
Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin |
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:513
|
| 02/15/2008 6:55 PM |
|
Posted By woulfcc on 02/15/2008 8:38 AM
Just pick up a block that has been out in the rain. The water weighs down the block. ESP will hold water.
Do you guys ever stack block?
OK, now you've challenged me! I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think you are as right as you think you are. You sure your imagination isn't making a wet block feel heavier than it really is? :-)
Anyway, we're going to find out just how right you really might be. I just put into a tub of water an 11" long piece of BB form. It weighed 1 lb. 14.4 oz before I put it in the water. It also floated right at 12 11/16" above the water before I sank it. Takes a full five gallon bucket of water on top to push it under!!
You tell me how many days you want me to leave it under water before I take it out and weigh it. I'll post the result here for all the world to see!! One limitation - we can't let it soak up more than 3 lbs 1.6 oz of water because I used my 5# postal scale to weigh it! Actually, I've got a beam scale that will weigh it if it gets heavier than 5 lbs.
I will be stacking block, hopefully within 3 weeks. The ground is thawing and drying, yipee! I sure hope I don't have to stack it in the rain though!!
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|
woulfcc
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:198
|
| 02/15/2008 8:22 PM |
|
I am sorry that sounded wrong, I meant to say do guys you ever get away from the computer?
I love to stack block and it is just to damn cold up here in WI. to build if anyone was building anyway.
Give it a day to pick up water and I think you will be surprised. If you let it dry out for a week in the sun it might come back to 2 or 2 1/2 lbs.
Let's use a marinade next time like beer brats. ( Just for fun)
If I am wrong I'll buy the beer! |
|
Changing How the World BUILDS!
Green , Done , Easy
Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin |
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:513
|
| 02/15/2008 8:33 PM |
|
Posted By woulfcc on 02/15/2008 8:22 PM I am sorry that sounded wrong, I meant to say do guys you ever get away from the computer
Hey, as long as we keep it civil, it's very productive to challenge each other. If we're wrong, we learn why and can improve. If we're right, we end with more information to back up our position.
For me, this forum has been a great learning experience. If I have any screw ups now when I build my house it'll most likely be because I ignored or forgot the advice and knowledge all you guys have shared. Thanks.
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|
mark p
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:4
|
| 02/15/2008 11:03 PM |
|
In continuing this thread, I just read info from cement.org regarding the use of paper between the EPS foam and the wire lath/stucco exterior. The info pointed out that although the use of such a material is not specifically required by the building code, it is recommended for use to provide a bond break between the stucco and the ICF, so as to discourage cracking in the stucco exterior.
Anyone have any additional info or experience?
mark p |
|
|
|
|
FlaICF
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:168
|
| 02/16/2008 4:17 PM |
|
Mark P
I can speak to the application of stucco to foam. We install over foam directly all the time. No paper or other barrier at all. It is in the mix and reinforcement that counts. Please contact me at 877-822-3370x39. I would be happy to explain. We are in St. Petersburg. |
|
|
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:513
|
| 02/16/2008 9:14 PM |
|
Posted By woulfcc on 02/15/2008 8:22 PM Give it a day to pick up water and I think you will be surprised. If you let it dry out for a week in the sun it might come back to 2 or 2 1/2 lbs.
There's no way it'll come back to 2 1/2 lbs after a week in the sun, 'cause it never got there in the first place!!!
The block weighs 2 lbs 1.6 oz after soaking for 26 hours. It picked up 3.2 oz of water. I didn't dry off the block, just shook the water off so some of that may be surface wetting. I put it back in the tub. We'll see what it's like after ~48 hrs.
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:513
|
| 02/17/2008 9:56 PM |
|
Here's the next to final numbers from my "Soak the block" experiment!
50 1/2 hrs total soak time. End weight after shaking water off - 2 lbs 1.8 oz. After drying off the exterior with a cold air blow dryer - 2 lbs 0.5 oz.
Total water absorbed over 50 hrs - 0 lbs 2.1 oz. The cut edge of the block feels the wetest.
I'm going to let the block dry out for a day near the heat register in the house. Wanna take bets how much it'll weigh tomorrow evening?
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|