DesuperHeaters and Water Heaters
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Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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23 Sep 2008 12:54 PM
Posted By geodean on 09/23/2008 12:40 PM
... A concentric fitting  is made up with two pipes of different diameter and different length.  The smaller pipe being the longest and extending further into the HWH.   This  allows  for the water to go out to the HWG and back thru the same fitting.

Ah, a coaxial type of fitting, with a pipe within a pipe.  Interesting learning here.  Never thought water could 'come and go' through one hole.

Thanks,

Bill


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23 Sep 2008 12:58 PM
Posted By a0128958 on 09/23/2008 12:46 PM

I'm pulling from the top, where the water is not as cool as at the bottom, but, I'm avoiding pulling into the HWG as much sediment dirt and debris as I'd otherwise get from the bottom.


Bill

Bill,  I think you are pulling from close to the bottom since the cold water "in" extends close to the bottom of the HWH.


Dewayne Dean
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Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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23 Sep 2008 01:18 PM

Earlier Paul provided a reference to the Climate Master HWG installation instructions.  I took a look at this, and noted a few points:

(1) CM's recommended HWG hook up is opposite that of WaterFurnace: (CM) pull from the bottom and return to the top.  But CM adds a wrinkle: also hook up Domestic Cold Supply to the bottom.

(2) CM expresses a lot more cautionary comment about scale build up than WF does, including commentary on use of water softening equipment to reduce scaling potential.

(3) CM confirms what I understood about the gas temperature of R410A versus R22 systems, that being "R-410 systems inherently have a lower hot gas temperature than R-22 systems ..."

(4) CM is more insistent than WF on not using gas-fired HWHs: "If a gas ... water heater is used, a second preheat tank must be installed."

(5) CM affirms the best HWG performance, regardless of using gas-fired or electric HWHs, comes from using a pre-heat tank: "Typically a single tank ... is used to limit installation costs and space.  However, a dual tank ... is the most efficient system ..."

(6) CM is cautionary about using a concentric fitting to eliminate connections to the CW: "Using a concentric ... fitting eliminates the need to tie into the hot water tank cold water piping, but is more susceptible to scaling."

(7) CM affirms that with an R410 system it's possible to transfer heat from the HWH to the R410 refrigerant.  And, based on my observations so far, not using a pre-heat tank makes it worse, and using a gas-fired HWH vs. electric makes it more worse.  Again, R410A systems only.

(8) CM says "the temperature difference between the water entering and leaving the HWG coil should be approximately 5-10°F."  Mine doesn't get close to this, instead being on the order of 1-2°.  Don't know all the reasons why, though.

Interesting learning.

Best regards,

Bill



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23 Sep 2008 01:25 PM
Posted By geodean on 09/23/2008 12:58 PM
Bill,  I think you are pulling from close to the bottom since the cold water "in" extends close to the bottom of the HWH.

Dwayne, thanks.  Interesting.

So it looks like I'm (and Paul) pulling from 'close to the bottom' and returning to the bottom.  Maybe to the point where the returning HWG water creates a little turbulence amonst the sediment at the bottom of the tank, then available to be sucked into the HWG via the 'close to the bottom' HWG input.

Guess I need to continue occasional draining of the HWH to prevent sediment build up.

Thanks again.  I've learned some stuff here.

Best regards,

Bill



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23 Sep 2008 02:03 PM

And here's how a HWG is supposed to work, I believe (see below).

Even though this is an R410A system, and even though it's running on low speed, still, the HWG is providing (some) benefit at this moment because the HW being circulated for now is at a lower temp than the R410A refrig.  As a result, the 'bottom of the tank' and 'near bottom of the tank' temperatures are rising.

The rise amount is small, and the time period is long, though, because:

(1) the HWG is not running very much (only averaging 8 min. On per cycle),

(2) the HWG is only contributing about a 2°F rise because the delta between the HWG circulated water and the R410A refrig is only in the range of 12 - 15° (see this chart: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/DHWHours7Deltas2.gif ).
 
To improve my HWG's performance, clearly I would need to increase the delta between the HWG circulated water and the R410A refrig.  Installing a pre-heat tank, and/or changing the HWH to electric, would accomplish this.

Best regards,

Bill

 


Attachment: DesuperDHWHours7.jpg

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23 Sep 2008 08:05 PM
Great stuff guys, keep it coming. Winter results will be interesting as well.
J


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24 Sep 2008 08:30 AM
Here's a graph with three years of gas consumption data: we use gas for cooking and hot water (Rheem PowerVent tank with coaxial DSH fitting at the bottom of the tank - it feels cold to the touch if the heatpump is off). Heatpump is a ClimateMaster Genesis 3.5 ton R22 unit. In the chart, the "gas consumption per day" axis is thousands of cubic feet. I used a moving average trendline to make the graph easier to read - there's a spike in consumption in late January 2007 - this is when I ran the gas fireplace insert as an experiment to see how much gas it would use (quite a lot) and so it distorted the consumption figures somewhat. I should also plot the heating/cooling degree day data too, but I don't have it on a per day basis in my tracking spreadsheet, just the monthly totals. I also have data for electricity consumption too to correlate heatpump usage against temperature. Oh yes, and the spike in consumption in May/June of this year was due to my Mum coming to visit for 3 weeks (and hence we used more hot water due to the extra showers and laundry).

Anyway, it can be clearly seen in the graphs that the gas consumption in the depths of winter is about 1/3 of the shoulder season. It can also be seen that summer 2006 was warmer than summer 2007.

For the record, winter 2005-2006 had 7000 Heating Degree Days (HDD), summer 2006 had 540 Cooling Degree Days; winter 2006-2007 had 7473 HDD, summer 2007 had 567.7 CDD (but lower peak temps/humidity); winter 2007-2008 had 7262 HDD, summer 2008 had 540 CDD (so far, but probably we're done for this season).

Hope this data is useful - gas consumption charges per month in the depths of winter are about Can$1.80 for the gas itself and a total of about Can$13 with all meter charges etc. included. SInce this is so low the cost of a preheat tank, [b]in my own situation[/b], would take decades to pay back. Hot water tank thermostat is at 125F, bottom of tank is cold and the hot water is noticeably hotter in winter when the heatpump is running.

Regards to all who have contributed data to this thread.

Paul.



Attachment: dsh-gas-nopreheat.JPG

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28 Sep 2008 01:35 PM
I got an indirect hot water heater - Bruderus LT-Series.

I can't figure out how to the great diagrams on this thread so here the link to the IHWH manual:

http://www.buderus.net/OurProducts/DomesticHotWaterTanks/LTSeries/DownloadManualsLiterature/tabid/179/Default.aspx

And some ascii art:

______________________________________
| |
| ( ) AW |
| |
| |
| ( ) RS/VS VS/RS ( ) |
| |
| ( ) EZ |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| ( ) EK/EL |
| |
|___________________________________ __|

Those parens are meant to be inlets.

The tanks is horizontal 26" x 26" hxw

AW: DWH Outlet 1"
VS: Boiler Water Supply 1"
RS: Boiler Water Return 1"
EZ: DWH recirc connection for aquastat
EK: DHW Inlet 1 1/4"
EL: Tank Drain

And I have an FHP ES61 GHP, with a desuperheater.

Foundering on how to hook all this up. FHP has been pretty useless.

Our present thought is to have the hot water coming from the GHP ( HWG ) tee into the incoming cold water ( ICW), just before a concentric ( coaxial ? ) fitting. That fitting would be connected to the line returning to the GHP.

Is this the right way to do this?

If it is, where in the #$%@ do you find a 1 1/4" concentric fitting ( googling hasn't helped, and the FHP fitting doesn't seem big enough, but no one there actually knows - sigh). The DHW in the house is 3/4", so the ICW has to be at least that. The lines to/from the GHP are 1/2", but I suppose could be reduced to 3/8" ( or more ?).

And is a coaxial fitting ( not that I've been able to find any of them) the same as a concentric fitting?

Thanks for any help.

sean


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28 Sep 2008 02:29 PM
My pretty ASCII art got messed up ( all the spaces were taken out ). But the point is that the CW in is at the bottom, the only other connection is the DWH out.

So both lines from and to the GHP have to somehow tie together with the CW in at the bottom.


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28 Sep 2008 02:43 PM
What is the source of heat for your indirect water heater?

Who did you buy your FHP unit from?  They should be able to sell you a concentric fitting ( the same as has been called coaxial fitting on this thread ).

If not I can get you one.  It will be 3/4 thread, but you can adapt it to what ever size you need.

I can't quite visualize what you are saying here

" Our present thought is to have the hot water coming from the GHP ( HWG ) tee into the incoming cold water ( ICW), just before a concentric ( coaxial ? ) fitting. That fitting would be connected to the line returning to the GHP.

Is this the right way to do this?"


A concentric fitting usually goes in the drain fitting on a HWH.


I would probably pull out of the HWH cold "in" line  and  go in at the HWH  hot "out" line.


Dewayne Dean
www.PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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28 Sep 2008 07:50 PM
> What is the source of heat for your indirect water heater?

A natural gas boiler

>Who did you buy your FHP unit from?  They should be able to sell you a concentric fitting ( the same as has been called >coaxial fitting on this thread ).

A guy who's only installed one, mine. They can get one from FHP, but it's too small.

>If not I can get you one.  It will be 3/4 thread, but you can adapt it to what ever size you need.


>I can't quite visualize what you are saying here
>
>>" Our present thought is to have the hot water coming from the GHP ( HWG ) tee into the incoming cold water ( ICW), >>just before a concentric ( coaxial ? ) fitting. That fitting would be connected to the line returning to the GHP.
>>
>>Is this the right way to do this?"
>

              HWG                back to
                 |                      GHP
                 |                        ^
CW----------------->concentric fitting--->Indirect hot water tank

I'd tee the hot water from the GHP into the Cold Water. Then run the CW through a concentric fitting into the indirect hot water tank. The return to the GHP is from the concentric fitting.

Is that clearer?
 
>
>A concentric fitting usually goes in the drain fitting on a HWH.

But that's a problem here. The CW fitting is the _same_ as the drain fitting. Just one 1 1/4" fitting.
 
>I would probably pull out of the HWH cold "in" line 

OK

>and  go in at the HWH  hot "out" line.

This confuses me. How can I go "in" at the HW out on the top of the tank?

Thanks for your quick response.

sean




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28 Sep 2008 09:34 PM
I don't know where you are going to find an 1 1/4 concentric fitting.

What about if you reduce the 1 1/4 opening down to 3/4? How many people live in your house? Do you need an 1 1/4 supply to your HWH?

Are there no other fittings on the HWH?

Even though the normal flow is out on the hot water line, the water from the GHP could go in there. Granted this is not the normal way, but your situation is not normal.

The only other suggestion that I have would be to do a separate small preheat tank that the GHP can heat which would then feed preheated water into your HWH.



Dewayne Dean
www.PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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28 Sep 2008 09:53 PM
Well with 3/4" HW through the house I wouldn't want to feed the hot water tank with less. If I use a 3/4 " concentric fitting, how big is the inlet - 1/2" ? And the return to the GHP is 1/4"?

But the idea of puuting the HWG into the HW out is really clever:

I just tee the 1/2" to the GHP into the CW. Then the 1/2" HWG from the GHP goes into the HW out. If no water is being called, I'm circulating hot water into the top ( it's a horizontal tank, so less temp variation) and pulling cold out the bottom. When DHW is called, I maybe reducing the temp of the out HW. Is there a valve I could use on the HW tee, that would prefer the HW from the tank ( ~130) to the water from the GHP ( ~115 -120, right)?

Thanks for all the help.

sean




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28 Sep 2008 10:01 PM
I don't know of any way to separate the hot water from the GHP and the hotter water from the HWH. But I wouldn't worry too much about it since 110° is about as hot as a person can stand in a tub or shower. I think this is your best option.

On a side note, is the boiler being used to heat something else as well? Just curious.


Dewayne Dean
www.PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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29 Sep 2008 09:55 AM
It's a 3 story house. The boiler is used ( rarely ) for the second and third floors. It's main function is backup. The power goes out often during the winter. The boiler with a small generator was much cheaper than a bigger or more GHP's and a big generator.

sean


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13 Oct 2008 08:32 AM
i have posted before about my semi-complex system, believe it or not the install is still not done. what i have currently is: 3-ton forced air with desuperheater, i plumbed the desuper hetaer to pull from the bottom of my 85Gallon Rheem Marathon, and return it to the top. this seems to be working very well, as we speak it is 32F outside, the top of my tank is 110F and the bottom is about 100F. the second part of my system which is not installed yet is a 2-ton water to water, this will have 3 zones, my garage floor, my basement floor, and a brazed stainless plate heat exchanger, the other side which i will circulate water from my 85G Rheem tank, i set this up for the off seasons when my desuperheater will not be producing very much. the heat exchanger is plumbed in the same as my desuper heater, pulls from the bottom and returns to the top. what i need is a 'well' for acurate temperature control of the tank aka zone 3. what i want to do is remove the bottom element and make a 10" deep or so well that i can thread into the empty element hole. this will give me a accurate tempurature for my Ranco thermostat. what i need to know is does anybody have a Rheem Marathon tank? and if they have removed the elements can they tell me what size the threads are? i will post this here for now, but incase the right people do not see it hear i will post a approriate labeled topic later. thanks.


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17 Oct 2008 11:24 PM
The most efficient setup will be:
1. Take water off the bottom and return it to the bottom with the "concentric" fitting. This is the coldest water thus has the highest heat transfer rate.
2. Taking off the bottom and returning to the top cold water in line will be second best. Note it passes through the downflow tube in the tank.
3. Taking off the cold water at the top then returning to the bottom will be the next best.

In truth, there will be very little difference in efficiency between the three setups. The "best" set up is probably 3 since it minimizes fouling the efficiency loss is extremely minimal.

Nice thread!


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19 Oct 2008 09:36 PM
Here's an update I have to contribute to this subject:
 
While I've had my DSH turned on (a couple of months now), I've been watching its performance.  A key reason is that I've been perplexed why some (2) have reported here that their direct-connected DSH to a gas-fired HWH is working just fine, resulting in substantial gas energy savings.  My observation had been that a DSH connected in this fashion just doesn't work.
 
After using my WEL instrumentation system ( http://welserver.com/WEL0043 ) to analyze various components of the DSH system (some charts of which were published earlier in this thread, and in another thread), I settled in to 3 charts that well illustrate how a DSH performs: instantaneous temp difference across the DSH's coil, daily KBTU contribution to the HWH from the DSH, and the portions of KBTU heat consumed by the HWH.
 
Each of these 3 charts are attached below.
 
The first chart, instantaneous DeltaT across the DSH's heat exchanger, for me, consistently shows a couple of things:
  1. My DSH's DeltaT just doesn't get much above 1.5 °F.  So while the 2-ton (3-ton running 1st stage) GSHP is running, it doesn't contribute a lot of instanteous heat injection to the DSH-HWH water loop.
  2. Depending on the steady-state water temp in the HWH, there can be occasions when heat is actually being transfered out of the HWH (and into the compressor's refrigerant line).
This chart doesn't have a lot of activity these days, by the way, because we're in the 'shoulder period' between Fall and Winter here in Dallas.
 
The second chart aggregates the heat contribution from the DSH into a daily 'view.'  Since I created this chart about 10 days ago, the average heat contribution from the DSH to the HWH is about 1.9 KBTU per day.  That's all.
 
Certainly in the middle of the summer, when the GSHP runs on average 8 hours each day, this daily heat contribution to the DSH will be higher.
 
In fact, if we normallize the 1.9 KBTU/day average and the GSHP's 1.4 hrs runtime/day average at the moment, that's 1.4 KBTU/day/GSHP-runtime-hr.  Then, multiplying by 8 hrs to reflect summertime running time conditions, that's 11 KBTU/day DSH heat contribution to the HWH.  Still, very small.
 
Small when compared to the HWH's 40K BTU/hr burner.  Everytime the HWH turns on its burner, that's 40K BTU/hr heat contribution.  And on average, daily, the HWH burner's on 0.9 hrs/day.
 
So this leads to the 3rd chart, that will show over a 50 week period, the total heat contribution to the HWH, and what portion is coming from the DSH.
 
The charts shows that, for this month so far, my family is using hot water at the rate of needing 36.9 KBTU, daily, on average, put into the HWH, from all sources total (burner plus DSH).  And of that 36.9, only 1.9 KBTU/day is coming from the DSH.
 
In fact, put in percentage terms, my DSH at the moment is only supplying 5.2% of the HWH's total KBTU heat input.
 
It's reasonable to question this because it's the 'shoulder period' between A/C and heating season.
 
So looking at this from a summer point of view now, my guess from above is that the DSH will contribute about 11 KBTU/day to the HWH.  If the family's hot water needs stay at the estimated average of needing 36.9 KBTU/day, then the DSH's 11 KBTU/day portion is about 30%.
 
So, while I'll have to wait until next summer to have actual numbers, I think it's fair to guess that my DSH, at the peak of the cooling season, will supply a little less than one-third of the HWH's total KBTU input needs.
 
Now, again looking at the 2 people reporting their direct-connected DSH to a gas-fired HWH (i.e. no holding tank) performs very well, I think the difference to how I'm running could be due to one of 3 situations:
  1. My DSH is not connected correctly (doubtful, though - have looked this over many times).
  2. The 2 people didn't report accurate numbers (doubtful, though - no reason not to be believe the numbers).
  3. My GSHP has R410A refrigerant and the 2 people have R22 gas.
I'm increasing confident that it's the third situation - the fact I have an R410 system.
 
I'm increasingly concluding that for a water-to-air GSHP that's an R410 system, with a DSH direct-connected to a gas-fired HWH, it's going to work, but, at best the DSH will only supply about one-third of the HWH's input heating energy.  And this certainly depends on how low a family is comfortable setting the HWH's tstat.
 
With the GSHP's R410A gas coming out at a high of around 125°, there just isn't much delta to the steady state hot water temp to get much of a water temp rise through the DSH's heat exchanger.
 
In summary, more specifically that previous postings from me, it looks clear to me that a holding tank is required if an R410A GSHP owner wants to get much higher than a one-third gas energy reduction from the DSH's 'free hot water' advertised capability.
 
Best regards,
 
Bill

Attachment: InstantaneousDeSuperHeaterDeltaTemp copy.jpg
Attachment: DailyDeSuperHeaterKBTUContributionToGasHotWaterHea
Attachment: MonthlyKBTUInputsToGasHotWaterHeater-PerDayAvgsMTD

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19 Oct 2008 10:09 PM
Bill,0

Good data and well-reasoned conclusions

I'm slightly skeptical of your family's btu requirement for hot water - I suspect a good portion (perhaps as much as 50%) of your gas fired HWH's runtime and btu input is due to a combination of its own combustion inefficiency as well as overcoming its relatively high standby losses (A tank of hot water with an open tube up the middle can't help but lose considerable heat during the off-cycle.)

We're in the shoulder season here in North Florida, very limited AC or heating right now. My family of 5 is running a 5500 Watt water heater approximately 1 hour per day, up from 0.3 hours daily during the heat of summer. That translates to a bit less than 20kBtuh / day for hot water. I figure your and my entering ground water temps are similar - not sure how many folks you have aboard your house nor how long / many showers they take.

I do have a big preheat tank, but with little / no heat pump operation at the moment, the preheat tank is at groundwater temperature.


Curt Kinder

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19 Oct 2008 11:25 PM
Engineer, excellent point on the fact that I'm assuming 100% (perfect) HWH burner efficiency - i.e., all heat produced by the burner goes into the HWH's water. In fact, we know that's not true.

Not knowing a better 'derating' number to use than what you comment with, I'll use 50% to accommodate combustion inefficiency. I.e., I'll use a burner 'derated' number of 20, not 40 KBTU/hr. This is a simple one number calibration factor change in my WEL system setup tables.

This will then revise my MTD numbers such that my DSH is currently supplying 10% of the HWH's total KBTU input needs, not 5%. And my estimate of best DSH performance in the summer time goes from supplying one-third to two-thirds of the HWH's total KBTU input needs.

It's getting easier to understand how an R22 system can meet advertising claims of 'free' hot water. In my case, with a 2 ton (3-ton 1st stage only) R410A system, I'm now estimating my DSH will supply two-thirds of summer time HWH total KBTU input needs.

(We're a family of 4 running the HWH (50 gal tank, 40 KBTU/hr nameplate burner rating) at about 0.9 hrs/day on avg at the moment (HWH tstat set at about 120°) - I don't have past summer time data.)

(My 30-day avg EWT at the moment is 71 °F (closed loop system, just water no anti-freeze). This is about 3° higher at the moment than my 'down deep' earth temp.)

If I'm really going to get two-thirds of my HWH's KBTU input needs from my DSH, then I'm rethinking the need to go back and retrofit in a pre-heat tank. The payback of going back in and putting in a pre-heat tank may not be worth it. The time to have done it was at the time of DSH/GSHP installation.

Thanks for the note.

Best regards,

Bill


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Example monitoring system: www.welserver.com/WEL0043
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