Hi Gary!

Glad to hear your unit is working better now.  Just curious what model you have, and what diagnostics were performed to determine the issues.  Mine is at least not shutting down, but once it is 30 degrees outside, it will run pretty much 24 hours a day.  We are looking at zero degree temperatures over the next few days, so we will see how it performs but I do not have high expectations.

Mark

GREAT NEWS

Hey mark , Thanks Geo
it's a Climate master tranquility 27 model 64. it had a code 4 saying it was a low loop temp. with the fp1 jumper cut (to allow the closed loop system to operate at 10 deg f.) it calculates the temperature of the loop by the low side referigerant temp.i think thats why it thought the loop temp was low,when it was actually low on referigerant. you could hear the air in the ground loop when you put your ear on the pump. the unit nearly ran all the time. after they got the loop right ,it still locked out with code 4 when tested in stage 2. thats when he checked the referigerant level. now at 25-30 deg temp outside the unit runs around for 15-20 min or so and shuts off. the loop is 48 deg inlet temp, at 42 psi(which i think is still a little low), 14GPM. the outlet air temp is now 101 deg (in stage 2) at 1800 cfm. I keep the stat at 70 deg F. it's not falling behind or anything anymore. hell it never goes to stage 2. we have some days coming up that won't get out of the teens we'll see how it works then. right now i'm liking it. I'm fairly sure my Installer didn't take the time to performance test it. I'm glad i got a different company now. I'm just a auto tech but i can read. hope this helps
Gary

I feel your pain Mark.  I have a Tranquility 27 in south Michigan and it runs 24/7.  And it's loud.  And it flood our yard.  That last one isn't really the unit's fault, but rather bad advice of an open loop system by our inept installer.  We have terrible, clay filled ground here...not really conducive to an open loop system but we were assured it would be fine given enough drain pipe.  Anyway, when it gets down to the temperatures we've had the last couple of days this thing can't keep up at all.  Very frustrating.  I've lost all faith in my installer at this point and am currently hunting for another company in the area that has some geothermal experience.  I think if I've learned anything by this whole experience it's that the choice of installer with a geo system is extremely important.

I wanted to poll the users of this forum out there. I have a Climate Master Tranquility 27 model 64. Lets assume normal operating parameters, and no supplemental heat source. Temperatures are in F.

1) Should I expect the unit to keep my house at 68 degrees when the outside temperature is 25-35?
2) Should the unit run close to 24 hours a day when the outside temperature is 25-35?
3) Should the unit be capable of generating heat at the register higher than 88 (lets say 100 as reference by Gary above)?

You can read my post to understand my frustration, and basically ready to install a gas furnace. A few weeks ago, the tech and my installer came out to check the system. They suspected the reason for the compressor shutting down was a bad temperature probe, and replaced it. I observed them taking the follwoing measurements to check the system:

Pressure Drop: 4.2
Stage 1:
EWT: 42.8
LWT: 39.3
HE = 25,462 (15 x 3.5 x 485) (table value is 29,300, but they said this is close enough)

Stage 2:
EWT: 42.9
LWT: 37.9
HE: 36,375 (15 x 3.5 x 485) (table value is 41,300)

I have a closed horizontal loop running on average 35PSI.

As Gary mentioned above, he is now getting 101 degree heat out. I cant imagine this. My house is bigger, 4000 squar feet, but how in the world is a unit generating 87 degree heat at the register while running on stage 2 suppose to heat the damn house? Take the size of house and how well it is insulated, because at the end of the day the temperature coming out of the vent really matters to me. It should not matter if it is 0 degrees outside or 45 the next day, the exit temperature should not be that different. And yes, if the unit is running 24 hours a day, the loop temperature will continue to drop over time. I have either been over sold on the system, or it is not working right. Please advise or share your comments. I will be online again after ordering some wood for my wood burning stove.

thanks,

Mark

One of my three systems is the TT064 Packaged unit. The loop is vertical 3 holes 300ft deep. The outside temperature on the day I did these measurements was about 16F.
The unit was cycling approx 15 min on, 5-7 off while at that outside temp. I have yet to see it run full time (or use AUX). It is difficult to tell 2-nd stage. I don't think I am even getting to that point, since the cycling is staying about that level (even on colder nights). I am anxious to see tonight/tomorrow as in SE PA we are supposed to hit lows around 4F.

My thermostat is set at 71F. The unit cycles 15-17 on
1.  January 1, 2009
     Entering Water Temp (EWT) = 40.4*F
     Leaving Water Temp (LW) = 35.9*F
     Entering Water Pressure (EWP) = 41.5 psi
     Leaving Water Pressure (LWP) = 35.0 psi

     Return Air Temp = 70, (tstat set at 71)
     Supply Air Temp = 91.2 (measured at unit) ** At vent, I was in the 80s (around 85-87F)

     Calculations:
         Water Flow (GPM total)
                    Delta-P = EWP-LWP = 6.5psi
                    Using Climatemaster table for water flow calc, I am off the chart for 40*F EWT. I extrapolated that for every .8 increase in delta-psi, there is about 1GPM increase on their chart.
                    So, GPM = 17
          Heat of Extraction/Heat of Rejection
                    HE(HR) = Flow-Rate * delta Water Temp * Fluid factor = BTU/h
                    HE(HR) = 17 * (40.4-35.9) * 485
                    HE(HR) = 17*4.5*485 = approx 37102 BTU/h

          Climatemaster spec at second stage with desuperheater off states approx 48,000 btu/h. This unit was in stage 1 and desuperheater was ON, so that takes away some of the heat (right?)


My other two systems also are cycling about the same (both are TT026 models, split) and the Supply Air at vents is typically only 15F increase (stage 1 likely).
My vents seem tight, sealed, and seem insulated, but the duct seems to be a major loss in at-vent temp, since at the air-handler it looks like I get the 20F split....

Cincy, let's focus on your air temp. Can you take a reading of the air entering your heat pump, right by the air filter. Then take a reading as the air exits the heat pump. You might have to poke a hole in the duct to do this.

Then take a reading of the air being drawn into your cold air register at the floor level and the air leaving the warm air vent at the floor level. Maybe this will help us zero in on your problem.

71 entering, 92 leaving. At the register I am monitoring, I am right around 88-89. These temps are during stage 2. Just got my electric bill which totaled 6,380 KW for 34 days. Absolutely ridiculous. I appreciate your advice and help.

Mark

Ouch !!  That is a lot to spend to heat your house.

The attached spec sheet shows that your unit should be making  at least 97° air with 70° entering.

So you are close.  I don't know if the out put of the unit is close enough to be with in spec.

Since the unit is pumping 50,000+  BTU's an hour into your house and your house is still cold,  all of that heat has to be going out some where.

Do you have an   ERV or HRV installed?

I dont have an ERV or HRV. This thing running constantly is killing me, and is the main source of my electric bill. I am going to call these guys again and have them come back out again and get me up to spec. I think the extra 5-7 degress will make a big difference. Regardless of where the heat may be going, the temperature coming out at the vent should be 95 or so, and it should not matter if it is zero degress out or 45, correct? When they were out 2-3 weeks ago, we were getting 91-92 out of the vent. Now it looks like the upper 80's at best.

A couple of observations;
C Mark, Let's try to stick to function questions in this thread and start a new one for the poll the users, this is so ungainly at this point I can't follow it. It might be best if you started over (preferably on a new thread) with all the pertinant data you are able to provide (use the start up sheet from the instruction manual and fill in any of the blanks you can). Also, the fall demand had folks working overtime at CM and we saw more assembly problems than usual... including a unit with no refrigerant in it at all, but refrigerant problems are least common.
Others with questions, start your own threads, I've not checked the forums much lately and am hardly able to digest this 5 page thread that has multiple topics and authors.
As gary d points out frustration can evaporate with the right help, don't give up folks.
bbexoerience; I believe I can help you, I have sent you a message with my contact information. Give me a call and we'll see what we can do.
Geo is unfamiliar to many people and contractors. It will make you feel helpless when something goes wrong, but with the right info, there are some great folks here that can ferret out your problem. Don't give up. Good luck to all.
Joe

I apologize for corrupting the precious thread Joe. He had a valid poll question, as I am sure that many of us are experiencing low vent air temperatures, and as you know from other posts/threads, all of us new geothermal owners are worried about the loop issues, low ewt and performance in general.

I spent just as much money (if not orders of magnitude more) on my system(s), yet for some reason when I provide feedback, or ask a question about performance it is snubbed, or, as in this case, you come out of the woodwork and redirect valuable feedback that I'd like to see too.

All most of us want is some way to tell that our design or implementation was successful and followed best-practices. We only get more turned off about these technologies when people show arrogance and attitude. I posted a response to the question, because that feedback is important to help make sure I got what I paid for too, so it is not any less-relevant than anything else said here. (If I would have posted a separate thread (which I did actually do), it didn't go anywhere (as is typical here).... so I took another approach on an oppening to make sure that we get some answers about system performance and measurement.

I see that this behavior is symptomatic of the entire "installer community" and it truly makes me sick. Word of advice: Help us all... don't discriminate; don't put us "out", show us you are "above the rest" and educate us openly. I don't consider any of my posts as spam to the forum,,

Boy, I hope that someday you guys face some of us "IT/software types" on our turf....... Maybe someday when you worry about what is going wrong as your computer performs horribly, or you are faced with viruses that are difficult to manage, or your computers crash uncontrollably, you might just feel the same way, trying to learn our world,  as we just pick-and choose how the threads go...while you are losing data critical to your business or home.

The power draw on your heat pump is 4.25 KW according to the manual

Let's say that  your heat pump ran 24 hours a day for 34 days.


Then we take  24*34*4.25 = 3468 KWh

Either the rest of your house uses a lot of power or your heat pump is drawing a lot more than it should.

Daniel,
I agree with you that the poll was worthy of it's own thread, as opposed to buried on page 5 of a different one.
Sorry you took offense to my observations, but if you go back to page one you'll find questions asked and answered more than once or never answered at all. I'm sure you know that trouble shooting is a mental exercise that requires some focus. When it becomes difficult to ferret out the answers to questions or too much extraneous information is interjected, solutions are much harder to come by.
As this forum is something I visit in my scant free time, I will confess to you that I am not interested in every thread. At no time however have I ignored an interesting (to me) thread due to the author.
Good Luck,
J

Thanks for information. Because of this forum, I have become more knowledgeable on my system, and what type data is necessary to check the performance. I am going to educate myself some more, take some readings myself, and go from there. If necessary, I will start a new thread and post additional questions. As much of a fan of GEO I would like to be, I would put a gas furnace in if I had to do it all over again. :(

JohnC,
Apologies I even forgot who started this thread. Go back to the start-up data and let us know.
CMark, I know you are frustrated, but give us the start-up info and we can help.
J