"Hydro delta still dragging their feet with a contractor list that I would like to get a 2nd opinion from. They probably don't want me to prove there is a problem with their unit."

That and / or they are loath to admit their dealer network is sparse.

I don't, but can copy them into a pdf format.  It will take me a day to get them and copy them.  Then I'll have to figure out how to post them since I'm pretty new at this.

Ken

Ken, to post the pdf use the Add Reply button at the top, left of this thread. At the bottom of the resulting page, you can attach files. Just remember where you saved the pdf, probably in My Documents. Dave

THANKS DAVE

Joe, here are the interior prints.  I hope you can read the dimensions and specs.

I should also note that the east, west and south sides of the house are all vinyl sided.  We do get some wind from the west as its very open but we don't sit on a hill or anything.  If anything we kind of sit down in a bowl.  The north is fairly protected by woods across the road approx. 80 ft away.  I'm actually located just NW of Wheeling,WV in Ohio for your reference.

It is advertised as 2,800sq ft but that second floor open section is another 300 additional sq ft. not counted because its not framed out but I know its still heated space.

If you have any questions or want any other info. let me know.

Thanks for your interest
Ken

Ken,
give me a few days.....(tax form time).
J

Joe,

You take it at your convenience.  I appreciate all the insight.

 

Ken

Ken,
It appears that a 3.5 ton heat pump looks to only cover about 93% of your load (if the basement is conditioned), so with the added burden of on demand hot water I personally would have liked a 4 ton.
You originally mentioned that you thought you were getting a 4 ton but didn't, tell me how many BTU's yours is.
Now I mentioned the basement (even though you said you don't heat it) because there is not a great difference between heating it or losing heat through ducts in unconditioned space. That is unless the duct is insulated.?
That said, the system certainly doesn't appear to be grossly undersized and there are many factors I don't know (loop size, length, depth......) all of which can impact performance and capacity. Zone systems also permit tighter design.
J

Joe,

 

The BTU output listed is 37,500/hr.  So,  I think technically it is between 3.5 and 4tons.

The basement is not finished but 2/3 is underground with a walkout on the backside.  The temp. down there is upper 50's to lower 60's depending on what area your in and its not drafty.  The southwest corner is exposed to the elements.  The ductwork is not insulated.

I have four vertical wells 150' depth on each well.

The zoning is set-up for 1st floor except master, master bedroom, 2nd floor and basement. 

It appears to me that the 2nd floor is the one that really struggles to get the heat.  It is the furthest from the furnace and when the other zones are calling it gets minimal air flow.  I have tried to close back registers on the 1st and master zones to create more airflow to the 2nd with minimal improvements.  This zone is the one that seems to bring on the back-up heat the most and the longest.  The backup comes on whenever it gets to 25 degrees or less and can run for as much 30 minutes at a time in the 10-20 degree outside temps.

 

Thanks,

Ken

Ken,
The number you describe is closest to 3 ton ( btu/ton=12,000). Based on information you provided to me, that covers about 91% of heating without on demand hot water. Again I'm not familiar with the product you have so 4 ton could be derated (in heating capacity) due to hot water production. A model number might be useful.
At a glance, I'm not thrilled with sizing, but there are still unknowns. Loop sizing would be typical of a 4 ton system here.
Keep us posted, I still visit family in Toledo and as I may adopt the Browns as my new football team of choice (given the stellar performance of our Detroit Lions) a road trip may not be out of the question one day (not to mention the Rock and Roll Hall of fame thing).
J

Joe,

The model # is 03-040-WTARW-TS-MT

Serial # MT1VO4OTB2317170286

I looked at Hydrodeltas website but it doesn't give any specifications at all for their units.  I will look in my owners manual this evening to see if there is anything there.

Please don't become a Browns fan!  I don't think that we be much of an upgrade over the Lions right now.  If your looking for a new team I'm sure us Steelers fans would welcome you in!

 

Thanks,

Ken

I refreshed my memory on the beginning of your thread, and the situation you describe is consistant with my suspicions. The unit is smallish for the job therefore you start kicking on aux at 30ish degrees (*). Compound that with DHW....
What does installer/manufacturer suggest is the next step?
Joe

Joe,

 

You are close, the backup comes into play around 25 degrees. 

I have been going back and forth with the installer all day and his position is that the house requires a lot of heat and I'm going to have to pay for it one way or another.  Then he started into this bs about insulated blinds on the windows and using almost a ton to heat the basement b/c its not insulated.   I basically fired back telling him that I didn't know insulated blinds were part of the protocol for a geothermal system and that I couldn't be using a ton to heat the basement b/c I haven't even been heating it.

 

Am I missing something or wasn't he supposed to do the heat calcs and size the equipment to be able meet the requirements of my home efficiently without going into backup heat at these higher temperatures.  This bs about my house requires alot of heat shouldn't have a bearing b/c he had all the floor plans, window configurations and insulating values.  Am I wrong in my logic here?

I have left repeated messages with the manufacturers tech support but no one will call me back. 

It looks like we are at a difference of opinion.  What do you recommend that I do next?

 

Thanks,

 

Ken

If your installing contractor is licensed by county or state that is an avenue for redress.

Contractor absolutely should have run load calcs and specified system to meet them, his failure to do so would seem to me actionable before a licensing board - a headache few license holders will want to endure.

Manufacturers tend to hide behind dealers, who, after all, get to mark up and resell their equipment. That markup is supposed to compensate for value added through competent installations. Manufacturer should have process to ensure dealer is competent, but your contract is with dealer / contractor, not manufacturer.

Court is an option, but likely the very last resort.

You are absolutely right!!

Here's the skinny. We know you are designed tight. So what now. Did the contractor provide you with load or op cost print outs? or was it all verbal? Insulated blinds have way more impact on a/c. The important thing is where to go from here.
The first thing that comes to mind is that you are still running cheaper than gas.
The second thing is that we can do better with the geo system if it doesn't have to do on demand hot water.
Another observation is that if you were a little farther south (WV) border or the winter wasn't unusually cold, you would be having less trouble.
I don't know the best path, nor do I have all the info before me.
More insulation/decreased load would reduce btu requirement.
How do you think we can best help?
J

I guess clarification on your proximity to WV might be in order (my brain runs faster than my fingers). I was thinking that your contractor (if reputable and experienced) might do a lot of work further south where this system would get a few points closer to right sized.
When I asked how we can help you, I don't know what your next step might be...I can tell you that I re calculated load with your attic insulated to an R-57 and the basement with insulated 2x4 exterior and only impacted the load by 2200 btu's. I also looked at a higher EWT (adding wells) and had no sgnificant impact (2% of additional heating handled by geo). I even added blinds to no appreciable benefit.
Let's go back to the installer's credentials and referrals. Did you speak with some of his satisfied customers, I wonder if they're still satisfied. Does the state license board have any complaints on this company?
I would also keep Hydrodelta informed all the way as well.
Or- make hot water another way and use a lot of aux. coil..... Not anyone's first choice, but it's still cheaper than gas.
J

Thanks to all for the feedback in the last 24 hours.

To answer a few of the questions that were posed I am located near Steubenville, OH.

This contractor would be working in the same climate as mine with all of his projects.  When I selected him I checked three references(two that he provided and 1 of co-workers family member.  All three were very happy but none have the same unit that I do.

Is there a way I can go about contacting the county and state licensing boards.  I really don't know what they would be listed under?  I already checked with the Better Business Burea and they only show 1 incident which had been handled.

I don't have any of the heat load calcs on paper it was all done verbally.  At the time he told me that we were between a 4 and 5 ton system.  I asked for his opinion and he recommended a four ton.  I would like to clarify that 1 ton = 12,000btu' per hour.  Because if thats the case mine is only rated at 37,500 btu's per hour at 50 deg ewt.   This would only actually be 3 ton then?

Do you think its time to bring in another contractor or two and re-spec the whole project and give opinions on the current design?

One last thing, last night I was curious as to my homes heat loss and since it was a sunny day the house heated up to 72-73 degrees so the furnace didn't run all evening.  It was 32 out and it to 1 hour and 40 minutes for the big room on the 1st floor to lose 1 degree without the furnace running at all.  When the furnace kicked on in another zone a little later that same room lost over a half a degree in 20 minutes.   This was all at night with no solar energy.  Any ideas?

Ken 
 

One thing that comes to mind about the sizing (and yes 1 ton = 12,000 btus or the amount of heat absorbed when 1 ton of ice melts in 24 hours), if he wrote you a contract for a 4 ton system and only provided a 3 ton then that would be actionable. Not knowing the brand however, it might be a 4 ton at 70* EWT or some nonsense. Why don't you contract another local pro to look it over, and they may have some advice on how to get in touch with the licensing folks and be able to verify size.
A couple of thoughts on this are to let your installing contractor know first that this is your plan of action (and if he can't demonstrate that he provided what was promised) and legal recourse is not out of the question; also the 2nd opinion guy you contact should have good references (speak with area supply houses or go on other manufacturers web sites) and should be more interested in solving your problem than running down the competition (when I'm asked to evaluate a competitor's work I ask not to know the name of the installer it is not an advertising op. it is a contract to see if I can meet the customers goals with the equipment provided or bid the necessary improvements). Finally, if the 2 contractors don't agree, you may need a third opinion to break the tie.
It is cheaper for a contractor to eat the price of some material and labor than to pay another contractor to fix things for him. Keeping your installer in the loop may help motivate him to deliver on his promises.
Temp drop on the inactive zone when another one kicked in is likely due to a return in that zone drawing in air from other areas (zone dampers only close supply ducts). Not necessarily a big deal.
Keep us posted.
J

Just a little more clarity on this one.

All heat pumps are sized per ton of cooling capacity and then the numbers are rounded.  So a unit with 46,500 btu's of cooling capacity will be called a 4 ton unit.

That 4 ton unit will not have  46,500 of heating capacity.  The heating capacity could be as low as 40,000 btu's. (at 30°  which is where heat pumps are rated)


If yours truly has 37,500 btu's at EWT of 50°,  it sure doesn't sound like a 4 ton unit.