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Deep in the Heart of Taxes
Last Post 15 Mar 2009 09:07 AM by Road Block. 154 Replies.
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thevinmanfxst
 New Member
 Posts:36
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| 15 Feb 2009 02:42 PM |
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Geofan...That's exactly what I thought too, at first. I guess it all depends on what is implied by:
"-The provision applies to taxable years beginning after December 31, 2008."
Does anyone know what this means, exactly??? (Anyone try to claim it yet for an '08 install?!?) |
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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| 15 Feb 2009 03:03 PM |
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There is allot of info out there so dont fly off the handle bars
It looks like from what I just found and tried to read 08 is out and it got cut to 10% ( of course the 2k still is good ) page 154-155 http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Recovery_Bill_Div_B.pdf
I have time to kill so Im going to be all over this till I get concrete info I do remember a seperate 10% on top of the 30 but I havent found it yet to any cpa out there HELP ME!!! |
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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| 15 Feb 2009 03:16 PM |
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My head is going to explode , do people realy talk like this
The Senate amendment is similar to the House bill, but with a modification with respect
to the placed in service period that determines eligibility for the election. Under the Senate
amendment, facilities are eligible if placed in service during the extension period of section 45 as
provided in the Senate amendment (generally, through 2013; through 2012 for wind facilities),
and with respect to which no credit under section 45 has been allowed.
Conference Agreement
The conference agreement generally follows the Senate amendment. Property eligible for
the credit is tangible personal or other tangible property (not including a building or its structural
components), and with respect to which depreciation or amortization is allowable but only if
such property is used as an integral part of the qualified facility. For example, in the case ofa
wind facility, the conferees intend that only property eligible for five-year depreciation under
section 1 68(e)(3)(b)(vi) is treated as credit-eligible energy property under the election. |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 15 Feb 2009 06:12 PM |
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For those of us who use electronic tax prep software the likely result is that the form used, 5695, will be updated online with (hopefully) correct info. Whenever I start turbotax it requests permission to look for updates online.
Taxpayers who installed systems in 2008 and expect to file 5695 might be served well by holding off until this shakes out. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 15 Feb 2009 07:05 PM |
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Posted By geo fan on 02/15/2009 3:03 PM
There is allot of info out there so dont fly off the handle bars
It looks like from what I just found and tried to read 08 is out and it got cut to 10% ( of course the 2k still is good ) page 154-155 http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Recovery_Bill_Div_B.pdf
I have time to kill so Im going to be all over this till I get concrete info I do remember a seperate 10% on top of the 30 but I havent found it yet to any cpa out there HELP ME!!! These pages appear related to section 42 of the tax code which deals with grants in lieu of tax credits associated with low income housing. The residential tax credits I have been talking about are defined in section 25D which deals with renewable energy tax credits and, unless I have missed something, the 30% tax credit for geothermal heat pumps with no cap made it through the conference committee and will be signed into law Tuesday morning. It's criptic but I think page 46 answers the question about the tax credit for geothermal in this bill. On rows 5 and 6, it says paragraph 1 of section 25D(b) is amended to read as follows and goes on to talk about fuel cells. It doesn't say anything about limitations for wind, solar water heaters or geothermal. 25D(b) in the 2008 law, that this replaces, had the language about the $2,000 cap for geothermal, a $500 cap for solar hot water and the $500 per kw for wind. So, the new law amends the 2008 law and the only limitation under the new law is for fuel cells.
We're still talking about the making of sausage so I could be wrong so best advice is to hang on and keep monitoring this bill until the ink dries. |
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 15 Feb 2009 07:41 PM |
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I vote we rename this topic deep in the heat of Confusion. I'd been trying to read thru this mass, and I came up with this paragraph:
Geothermal heat pump property
The energy credit applies to qualified geothermal heat pump property placed in service
prior to January 1,2017. The credit rate is 10 percent. Qualified geothermal heat pump property
is equipment that uses the ground or ground water as a thermal energy source to heat a structure
or as a thermal energy sink to cool a structure.
Ok, so what exactly is an energy credit anyway? It doesn't appear to be a tax writeoff as far as I can tell. And what can I do with my credit? It would appear anything placed into service before 2017 would qualify for a credit.
Section 25D also provides a 30 percent credit for the purchase of qualified geothermal
heat pump property, qualified small wind energy property, and qualified fuel cell power plants.
The credit for geothermal heat pump property is capped at $2,000, the credit for qualified small
wind energy property is limited to $500 with respect to each half kilowatt of capacity, not to
exceed $4,000, and the credit for any fuel cell may not exceed $500 for each 0.5 kilowatt of
capacity.
...
House Bill
The House bill eliminates the credit caps for solar hot water, geothermal, and wind
property and eliminates the reduction in credits for property using subsidized energy financing.
Effective date.-The provision applies to taxable years beginning after December 31,
2008.
Senate Amendment
The Senate amendment is the same as the House bill.
Conference Agreement
The conference agreement follows the House bill and the Senate amendment.
It looks like from the date, people who installed a system in 2008 are S--- out luck. |
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thevinmanfxst
 New Member
 Posts:36
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| 15 Feb 2009 08:29 PM |
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Of '08 installs are out, then no one can claim the 30% on '09 installs 'till 2010...correct? (That's really helpful...) |
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 15 Feb 2009 09:00 PM |
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Posted By thevinmanfxst on 02/15/2009 8:29 PM Of '08 installs are out, then no one can claim the 30% on '09 installs 'till 2010...correct? (That's really helpful...) Homeowners who install geothermal in 2008 get a 30% tax credit up to the max of $2,000. This is a dollar for dollar reduction in taxes owed. So, on top of whatever the homeowner would normally get back from Uncle Sam, they will get back 30% of the cost of the geothermal system install up to $2,000 on top of the normal IRS check amount they would get otherwise. Homeowners to install geothermal in 2009 through 2016 (i.e. before January 1, 2017) get a 30% tax credit. There is no limit. So, if a homeowner installs a $40,000 system this year, next year when they file their tax return they will get $12,000 on top of whatever they would normally get back from Uncle Sam. A business owner who installs geothermal in their place of business in 2008 through 2016 will get a 10% investment tax credit on their business tax return. The investment tax credit has no limit and this did not change from the TARP bill passed in Oct-08. |
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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thevinmanfxst
 New Member
 Posts:36
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| 15 Feb 2009 09:03 PM |
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2k v.s. 12k... >sob< |
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tuffluckdriller
 Advanced Member
 Posts:630

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| 15 Feb 2009 09:34 PM |
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183eej,
Wait a minute, I thought this was a non-refundable tax credit. Is the $2,000 credit refundable? It adds to a refund? If so, that's a HUGE difference to everyone who had it installed. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 15 Feb 2009 09:48 PM |
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Clark - are you up on what is meant by a 'refundable tax credit' ?
Any tax credit either reduces amount owed or adds to refund of taxes paid by withholding or quarterly estimates.
A 'refundable tax credit' has the additional feature of being payable to filers with total tax liability of zero or less than the amount of the credit - they get money even if they paid little or no income tax at all (Earned Income Tax Credit is the classic widespread instance of this)
Most if not all folks buying geo are at least middle class homeowners with likely significant tax liability able to be reduced by this credit even if it is non-refundable. Understand that tax liability has little to do with whether one gets a refund - that's all about how much withholding or quarterly payments were made COMPARED to tax liability.
Hope this helps
ck |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Jobbz
 New Member
 Posts:27
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| 15 Feb 2009 09:52 PM |
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183eej,
Would you take a look at my application as an example to illustrate your opinion?
My system has been sized up, quoted and is waiting to sign the contract. This will be
a retrofit with a 5 ton and 4 ton earthlinked system using high-velocity
ducts (also being installed) the total cost is going to be $75k-$90 when everything is done. By everything I'm talking about drilling, new concrete and landscape over the drill area, high-velocity ducts, carpentry (to clean-up duct work) and the DX system itself. There is not DEsuperheater as the contactor does not recommend it.
Since all this work is required to have it done right will the whole thing be applicable to this credit? If so, then without a doubt I will pull the trigger on this deal after the bill signed and my account verifies it. thanks.
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robinnc
 Advanced Member
 Posts:586
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| 15 Feb 2009 10:27 PM |
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Job.....didn't it say you had to have a desuperheater to get the credit??
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bmancanfly
 New Member
 Posts:79
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| 16 Feb 2009 07:47 AM |
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Engineer. So, you're saying that if had no income tax liability at all , nothing paid and nothing owed. And I installed a "qualified" system that cost $10,000, that the gov't would send me a check for $3,000 ? |
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tuffluckdriller
 Advanced Member
 Posts:630

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| 16 Feb 2009 09:39 AM |
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Yes, I realize what a refundable vs. non-refundable credit is. I was under the impression that these renewable energy tax credits were all NON-refundable. If they are indeed refundable, we install and sell to many people who do get some refund. They would love to get, as bmancanfly mentions, 30% of the cost paid for, not just tax credited. Tax credits, as too many don't realize or care to figure out, are usually worth about 3 to 1 on reported income. With $2000 tax credit, you can report $6000 more income without owing taxes on it--as a generalization, not exact. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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tuffluckdriller
 Advanced Member
 Posts:630

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| 16 Feb 2009 09:51 AM |
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Jobbz,
As far as I understand, you don't get to include the cost of the heating/cooling distribution system. So no inclusion of duct, radiant floors, or associated pumps/blowers, etc.. I may be wrong, though, and I expect someone will correct me if I am. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 16 Feb 2009 10:27 AM |
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Posted By Jobbz on 02/15/2009 9:52 PM 183eej,
Would you take a look at my application as an example to illustrate your opinion?
My system has been sized up, quoted and is waiting to sign the contract. This will be a retrofit with a 5 ton and 4 ton earthlinked system using high-velocity ducts (also being installed) the total cost is going to be $75k-$90 when everything is done. By everything I'm talking about drilling, new concrete and landscape over the drill area, high-velocity ducts, carpentry (to clean-up duct work) and the DX system itself. There is not DEsuperheater as the contactor does not recommend it.
Since all this work is required to have it done right will the whole thing be applicable to this credit? If so, then without a doubt I will pull the trigger on this deal after the bill signed and my account verifies it. thanks.
For purposes of the tax credit, the lack of a desuperheater is a deal killer I believe. If you have the contractor add it to the install (assume for the same price for this discussion), you would get a tax credit of $22.5K-$27K (i.e. $75K x 30% -$90K x 30%) in 2009. For the sake of argument, let's assume you make $100K and you your W-2 shows you paid in $20K in federal income taxes in 2009 and you paid $90K for the above system in 2009. Let's also assume that, after itemized deductions, charitable donations, etc. your tax liability was $16K for 2009 before the geothermal tax credit considerations. In this example, you would get back all of the $20K you paid in 2009 and $11K of the unused geothermal tax credit would rollover to your 2010 tax return. The $20K check would be comprised of $4K for regular stuff (i.e. itemized deductions, charitable donations, etc.) and $16K of the $27K geothermal tax credit. Because the geothermal tax credit is non-refundable, you can only get back what you paid in. But the rollover provision will allow you to take the rest of the credit in future years. Since the bill is not yet signed, this is all conjecture so definitely wait until you accountant verifies the provisions of the actual bill. |
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 16 Feb 2009 10:34 AM |
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Posted By tuffluckdriller on 02/16/2009 9:51 AM Jobbz,
As far as I understand, you don't get to include the cost of the heating/cooling distribution system. So no inclusion of duct, radiant floors, or associated pumps/blowers, etc.. I may be wrong, though, and I expect someone will correct me if I am. It has to be a functioning system and it won't function without ducts so I believe these things are included in the cost that can be applied to the tax credit. The code says it has to be a "qualified geothermal heat pump property expenditure" and goes on to say it must be installed on or in conjection with a residence in the US and used as a residence by the taxpayer, uses the ground or ground water to heat and/or cool the residence and must be energy star certified. If you connect it to the swimming pool or a hot tub though, you're toast. |
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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183eej
 Basic Member
 Posts:127
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| 16 Feb 2009 10:53 AM |
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Posted By bmancanfly on 02/16/2009 7:47 AM Engineer. So, you're saying that if had no income tax liability at all , nothing paid and nothing owed. And I installed a "qualified" system that cost $10,000, that the gov't would send me a check for $3,000 ? You may have already picked up on this but in this example, you wouldn't get back anything because you didn't pay in any taxes. |
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| Dale Walker<br>EarthTap<br>www.earthtapenergy.com<br>Where the sun never sets on energy savings<br> |
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TechGromit
 Advanced Member
 Posts:634
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| 16 Feb 2009 04:17 PM |
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Posted By 183eej on 02/16/2009 10:27 AM
For the sake of argument, let's assume you make $100K and you your W-2 shows you paid in $20K in federal income taxes in 2009 and you paid $90K for the above system in 2009. Let's also assume that, after itemized deductions, charitable donations, etc. your tax liability was $16K for 2009 before the geothermal tax credit considerations. In this example, you would get back all of the $20K you paid in 2009 and $11K of the unused geothermal tax credit would rollover to your 2010 tax return. The $20K check would be comprised of $4K for regular stuff (i.e. itemized deductions, charitable donations, etc.) and $16K of the $27K geothermal tax credit. Because the geothermal tax credit is non-refundable, you can only get back what you paid in. But the rollover provision will allow you to take the rest of the credit in future years.
Since the bill is not yet signed, this is all conjecture so definitely wait until you accountant verifies the provisions of the actual bill. Unused Geothermal Tax credit can be rolled over? So if I installed my new Geothermal system in 2008 for $15.140, 30% of that is $4542, but the maximun deduction I can take on my 2008 taxes is $2000, so your suggesting I can roll the $2542 over and claim it for the 2009 tax year? |
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