Faulty Earthlinked DX systems
Last Post 07 Jul 2011 10:29 AM by drao. 212 Replies.
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draoUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 11:03 AM
Hi,
       I am writing for your opinion on my Earthlinked DX units installed in Aug 2008.  I have 3 units(2 ton ,4 ton and 5ton)-11- 50 ft umbrella loops were installed for my 8600 sq ft home(including basement).  It is an all brick home in Michigan with cellouse insulation built in 2005 and retrofitted with geothermal.  It even has low E windows and Therma Tru door, also attic insulation all through the home topped up 6 inches this May.  I am extremely frustrated. I have 4 zones in the house. I have no problem with the comfort level(72 degs inside in winter and 75 degs inside in summer.  My big problem is the utility bill which went from $4400 for the entire year to $6300 annual after the geothermal system was installed. My february 2009 bill was a whopping $1050 . My contractor has come in several times and even redug my yard to fix the problem and no solution yet.  I now have sub meters on my three units and even with a very cool to moderate summer the units guzzle electricity.  !
For instance my 4 ton unit that services the 2nd floor and basement consumed 48 kwh on a 81 deg day and with my basement never calling for a/c since it always between 72 and 73 degs there.  I am getting no prompt response from the company(the contractor is certified by them).  They sent a tech guy from the company(Russ) in March and he inspected all systems and suggested different modifications and some loop redigs and refrigerant reinfusion all of which was performed promptly by my contractor.  still no resolution.  I am actually considering legal action against the company and all invoved.  Please advise.

Thanks


engineerUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 11:45 AM
I agree that electricity consumption seems high.

You have a lot of house and a lot of tonnage. Also, bear in mind last winter was particularly cold in many areas.

What fuel did you have before geo and how much did it cost you?

What are you paying per kwh?

What did the system design predict would be your cost / power consumption?


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The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 12:31 PM

I would start by verifying your units are within spec with respect to power consumptions.  Are you handy enough to obtain current draw measurements for your three units?  Something like:

Unit #1 (X tons), 1st stage: 99.9 amps
Unit #2 (Y tons), 1st stage: 99.9 amps
Unit #3 (Z tons), 1st stage: 99.9 amps

Likewise for 2nd stage.

Your units should have some manufacturer specs that you can check these against.

If these are fine, then I would next look to see if your units are producing the correct cooling capacity, first in 1st stage, then in 2nd stage.  This should be easy to measure on a one time basis, or, easy to continuously monitor with some instrumentation.  If you want to do this yourself, there are many here who can articulate the temperature and power measurements needed along with the calculations.

If these two subjects are fine, then I would next look to see if you have excessive run time.  If so, you can conclude you have structure envelope problems.  And that you really are saving (a lot) of money compared to if you had conventional heat/AC.

I would think the first two subjects I suggest above would be straight forward for an HVAC professional to not only determine, but to demonstrate to you that all is fine with respect to the specific HVAC equipment.  The calculations to determine cooling capacity, for example, on either the air output side, or the refrigerant input side, only require a few temperature and power measurements.

Good luck.

Best regards,

Bill



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joe.amiUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 12:46 PM
I just recieved a notice from earthlinked that some of the units were shipped with wrong compressor capacitors which lets them operate but uses inordinant amount of electricity. Have contractor check that. You are proximate to schwartz creek which has the largest dealer in mi. If that is your installer you are in the best possible hands. If it is not then find them.
Good Luck,
Joe


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draoUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 01:15 PM
Hi,
         Thank you for taking time to resolve my problem.  To answer your first question, I had natural gas heating in my home prevously(from 2005 to 2008 Aug)

   During summer(June to September), beyond 20 kwh/ day(600 kwh for 30 days) the charges for electricity are 9.9cents per kwh and upto 600 kwh, 6.25 cents per kwh.  During other months it is a flat 6.25cents per kwh.

         According to the energy cost analysis provided by my contractor, the total system is not expected to cost more than $970.20 in electric bills  .  I don't even have a de superheater (use natural gas for hot water and cooking even now) .  So, what's the diagnosis?  I will have to consult my contractor for amp draws etc.  I was told on installation that my units are sized for heat(I live in Michigan) and hence oversized and highly efficient for a/c.  None of that has happened so far.  Also, after I had the sub meters installed,  I have found that my main meter has consumed 801kwh in 6 days!   Total submeter readings are 489 kwh ie 61% of the total electricity consumed.   Interestingly, as my geothermal units consume more energy when outside temps are high, my mainmeter reads(other than submeter totals) also go up, indicating that the problem is not just at the equipment level, ie also with associated equipment, because anyone could easily deduce that I would not turn on more lights as it gets warmer outside.   Your thoughts please!


draoUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 01:19 PM
If you are referring to Brian Garno from Garno brothers, he installed my units and is truly the best.  He has already checked my capacitors ansd states that they appear fine.


joe.amiUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 02:44 PM
You mention sub meters on the 3 units. Does that include the airhandlers? If not that would increase usage on the main meter in hot weather.
J


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draoUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 07:03 PM
My sub meters are measuring kwh on the units alone.  Does not include airhandlers.




Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 07:27 PM
Posted By drao on 08/22/2009 7:03 PM
My sub meters are measuring kwh on the units alone.  Does not include airhandlers.




While I'm very familiar with submeters (have 3 at my residence), I'm not familiar with Earthlink DX HVAC equipment.

For each Earthlink DX GSHP 'unit,' does it come as two separate pieces of equipment?  I.e., one 'box' for the compressor that connects to all of the copper tubes in the ground, and anther 'box' with the blower fan motor in it?

Thus, in your case, do you have six 'boxes?'  (And 3 of which are monitored by submeters?)

And further, are the blower fan motors ECM or PSC?

Best regards,

Bill


Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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22 Aug 2009 08:16 PM

Without answers to some of the questions above, still, it may be possible to offer a reasonable guess on where the problem is.

If I understand your numbers correctly, you consumed 489 KWH just for HVAC purposes, for a 6 day period.  That's 82 KWH per day, on average.

As a comparison, I have what I and many others believe to be a well functioning GSHP implementation, here in the blistering heat of Dallas.  It's conventional water technology, not DX, so it may not be producing the best of DX-technology performance, but it's probably 'in the ball park.'

I also have an instrumentation system, so I have access to a lot of performance numbers.

For last month, July, I consumed 1174 KWH just for HVAC, which is 38 KWH per day on average.

To rationalize your 82 KWH/day and my 38 KWH/day numbers, we can use the square footage of our residences.  Your residence is 8600 sf - mine is 3400.  Thus, you've got a 9.5 KWH/day/Ksf number, and I've got an 11 KWH/day/Ksf number.

If you assume your basement is not conditioned, and it's about 1400 sf, then your 9.5 KWH/day/Ksf number changes to the same as mine: 11 KWH/day/Ksf.

The next step is one where I don't have enough information to finish - rationalize your 11 KWH/day/Ksf number to your climate.  My 11KWH/day/KSF was for a July climate with many 100°+ days.  I don't know if you have it this hot.

One way to do this rationalization is to use Cooling Degree Days.  For example, for the same measurement period for me (July), I had 644 CDDs, which is 21 CDDs per day.  On a per CDD basis, then, using my 11 KWH/day/Ksf number, it becomes 0.53 KWH/day/Ksf/CDD.

Perhaps you can look up your CDDs for the same 6 day period you measured your KWH.  If so, you can get an average number of CDDs per day for the 6 day period, and similarly rationaize your 11 KWH/day/Ksf number.

Finally, let's say that for some strange reason it was very hot in Michigan, during your 6 day measurement period, such that your CDDs per day average was close to 21.  Then you'd know that your equipment performance is at least to the same as the most current model WF conventional water technology GSHP units.  And thus your problem is most like the residential structure envelope.

But, let's say, as another example, your CDDs per day average is half of what it's here in Texas at the moment (i.e., your statistical average of each day's temperature is about 75 - 76°F).  Now you're looking at about a 1.0 KWH/day/Ksf/CDD number, double my number, which would say something's wrong with your DX equipment, at least as compared to conventional water GSHP technology.

If it were me I'd go off and get the CDD numbers for your area, and do the calculation.  While not an exact, precise calculation, I'll bet it's in the 'ball park' to eliminate either the structural envelope or the DX equipment as your source of problem.

Hope all this helps.

Best regards,

Bill



Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
draoUser is Offline
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23 Aug 2009 02:06 PM

 To answer your questions, my geothermal units were retrofitted- ie the airhandlers except for the motor -now variable speed are the same.  So, I only have 3 boxes outside-being monitored by the sub meters.  

               My electricity (main meter in July 2009) states our home consumed a total of 2129 kwh although our average HIGH  for the month of July 09 was 75.8 degs F   with temps at night in the 50s and sometimes dipping as low as 47 degs F.  The sub meters were put in on Aug 13th 09 after tremendous pressure on the wholesaler who sold the units to my contractor that I was going to  seek legal advice.   My electricity consumption at the same time  last year(July 08) was 2007 kwh with CONVENTIONAL A/C!  July is typically the warmest month in Michigan.   Also my basement that never requires cooling has 3200 sq ft.  I feel as if I have been taken on a ride.    



Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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23 Aug 2009 02:39 PM
Posted By drao on 08/23/2009 2:06 PM

... our average HIGH  for the month of July 09 was 75.8 degs F   with temps at night in the 50s and sometimes dipping as low as 47 degs F.
... July is typically the warmest month in Michigan.
Also my basement that never requires cooling has 3200 sq ft.


Using your weather supplied info from above, let's assume for the month of July average highs of 76 °F, and average lows of 54°.  That's an average daily temp of 65°.  Which means you don't have any Cooling Degree Days.

Meanwhile, for a 6 day period in Aug., where I'd guess the weather pattern is still similar or maybe slightly cooler, your average HVAC energy consumption, is 82 KWH/day.  And this is for a 5400 sf home (not counting your 3200 sf basement).

On a per Ksf basis, you're consuming 15 KWH/day/Ksf.  For zero (repeat: zero) CDD each day.

On the other hand, for a well performing water loop technology GSHP implementation here in Dallas, I'm at 11 KWH/day/Ksf, for days on end with an average of 21 CDDs per day (i.e., avg temp each day is 86° - highs at 100° and lows at 72°).

So, as you have already figured out, something's wrong.

I'll contend that something's so grossly wrong that it should be straight forward for an HVAC professional to look at your situation and figure it out. 

If it is not the HVAC equipment, then these would be areas I'd look at:

0. Is the instrumentation accurate?  (Are your numbers correct?  I'd go back and quadruple check.)

1. Do you have a substantial heat generating source inside the home?

2. Are the thermostats working properly (although this one would be obvious because you'd be freezing cold if the tstats were not operating properly)?

3. Is the duct work done properly, with no major exhaust, on the supply side, direct to an attic or outside?

4. Is there some kind of substantial hole or opening in the building structure to the outside?

To put this into perspective, if your HVAC equipment is working properly, your 82 KWH/day consumption is equivalent to a Heat Rejection of about 1280 KBTU - per day!  And for zero CDD days!  If your equipment is working properly, that cooling has to be going somewhere!

This is why I contend it should not be difficult for any HVAC professional to figure out what's going on.  Wish I lived near you - I'd come help you figure out where your problem is.

Best regards,

Bill


Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
JackHUser is Offline
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23 Aug 2009 03:36 PM
Could I get some clarification on this 11-50 ft umbrella loops from the Original Post?

This is on 11 tons worth of equipment.

Is that 11,22 or 33----50ft. holes?


draoUser is Offline
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23 Aug 2009 03:41 PM

I have 11 holes - one hole for each ton.  I am told they are about 50 ft deep(vertical bore) with an umbrella pattern and 10 ft apart in a straight line

        I am going to dig deeper -no pun intended, and persist in getting the system fixed or the energy guzzling equipment removed from my premises.  In the meantime, please feel free to offer dignostics.

 



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23 Aug 2009 06:22 PM
Nobody has asked so I thought I would. What is the entering/exiting water temps on the units?
Also, everything I've read on this web site always says the 'average' length of loop per ton is 300ft. Since the wells are only 50ft for a total 100ft(double loop)....pros.....would this not be a problem??


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23 Aug 2009 06:32 PM
This is a DX system. Copper loops, refrigerant based. Most loops are 100' based on one ton( 100'down and 100' up). This may have a different design layout. Sounds like 50' down and 50'up.


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23 Aug 2009 07:27 PM
I know of DX installers that prefer 50' wells instead of 100'.  So that sounds right to me.  Maybe a DX installer can tell us if he uses one 50' well per ton of cooling.


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23 Aug 2009 08:03 PM
I am assume you are talking a Diagonal Loop system where each unit will have its own set of manifolds ......

The loops are drilled around a small diameter circle ( around eight feet ) not in a straight line and from 15 to 45 degrees out from that circle.......

It is important the all the loops for each system are the same length to the manifolds.

I think JackH is thinking the same thing I am , a D3 50 foot loop system is 3 loops per ton.....



Dave in NH


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23 Aug 2009 08:14 PM
I'm not clear on the installation either. Umbrella and "straight line" do not mean the same thing. I know this installer to have more of these in MI (several dozen) than anyone else. Is it possible that we are talking about 11 clusters in a straight line with multiple loops?
Joe


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23 Aug 2009 10:07 PM
I had water loop on the brain for some reason.......:(


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