Faulty Earthlinked DX systems
Last Post 07 Jul 2011 10:29 AM by drao. 212 Replies.
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airhead1164User is Offline
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25 Aug 2009 09:12 PM
Yes I ussed 65 degrees. Using the delta T at the air coils and thr measured CFM I determined the system output at the airhandlers. This figure does not allow for duct loss. I have not done a total duct diagnostic yet.
System #1 4 ton is putting out 36,054 BTUH System #2 5 ton is putting out 50,225 BTUH System #3 2 ton is putting out 9,623 BTUH Older system I have installed produce more BTUH. I had to change a compressor on a 4 ton system that is 2 1/2 years old. When I checked capacity it was producing over 50,000 BTUH It seems everything I put in from June 2008 on does not produce The BTUH the older equipment does.
Brian


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26 Aug 2009 08:05 AM
What refrigerant is in these?


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draoUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2009 09:18 AM

Good morning everyone! Take a look at these reads:

08/16/09

 00030       13

 

1602           37               

 4710           40

01705        166     High 89F

08/17/09

 00040       10

1650            48

 4728           18

01834        129       High   81F



And these:


08/24/09

 00064        02

1814            09

 4784           07

02434         74

        High  76F

08/25/09

 00067        03

1825            11

 4800           16

02506         72

        High  81F




My take on the different reads for the same high of 81F on 08/17/09 and 08/25/09  are:



In the first case(08/17/09) temps are cooling down from a high of 89F the previous day and hence the units consumed more(low -nightime on 08/16/09  is 65F) requiring A/C units to work during the night as well on 08/16/09(my reads are taken in the evening )

In the second case(08/25/09), temps are going up from a high of 76F the prevoius day with a nightime low of 51F on 08/24/09 requiring minimal A/C use at night. 

           Does anyone still believe I have high household usage that varies with outside temps?



Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2009 09:21 AM

Posted By airhead1164 on 08/25/2009 9:12 PM
... Using the delta T at the air coils and thr measured CFM I determined the system output at the airhandlers.
... System #1 4 ton is putting out 36,054 BTUH
System #2 5 ton is putting out 50,225 BTUH
System #3 2 ton is putting out 9,623 BTUH


(posting deleted - didn't see that capacity numbers above were measured in heating mode.  I apologize.  Bill)


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Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2009 09:45 AM
... Does anyone still believe I have high household usage that varies with outside temps?

At this moment, I don't think conclusion can be drawn.  For a few reasons:

(1) You have one of the most well respected installers in MI, per what Joe has already said.  Thus, my guess is that if you have a really obvious GSHP performance problem, it would have been fixed by now.

(2) The data is disjointed, collected at different time points, and is incomplete.  Thus, it's hard to draw conclusion yet.

(3) If the GSHP units are working fine, or even marginally, the HVAC related KWH data just doesn't make sense.  The data would thus suggest there's one big hole in the structure somewhere, which in actuality I doubt.

(4) The structure was recently constructed, with many advanced insulation properties.

I recommend you do a few things, some quickly before you lose your cooling climate:

(1) Don't change anything with respect to HVAC at the moment.  Change at this point makes it hard / impossible to compare to previous data and draw conclusion.

(2) Get someone to come in and carefully / accurately measure sensible cooling capacity and power draw on a day where there's a need for cooling, compute the EER numbers, figure out what manufacturer specs should be (properly adjusted for actual ambient conditions), and compare the two.  Some judgement on latent cooling will be needed but this can be looked up in the specs (or actually measured but requiring additional time, effort and sophistication).

(3) Include the daily low temps on your KWH data recording, enabling CDD numbers to be calculated.

(4) Ignore total KWH consumption since you have submeters on the HVAC equipment.  I believe the analysis on the variance of the total KWH numbers confuses the subject at hand.

(5) Check your accuracy reading the HVAC related KWH meters, ensuring the data is absolutely correct.

All just my opinion - hope it's helpful.

Best regards,

Bill



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draoUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2009 10:20 AM
Brian, could you please respond to the above suggestion? 


Unfortunately, temps for the next 10 days are going to be in the 60s and 70s(high).


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26 Aug 2009 10:36 AM
The readings were taken in heat mode. I assumed it would be obvious because the delta increased across the coil. I have the tools to measure both sensible and latent capacity. However we are going to experiencing cool temps as drao stated. If you feel this not an issue I can get the data Thursady afternoon. My tools just came back from calibration, so they are dead on. These are R-22 systems. I tend to agree there is a hole in the envelope. The four ton system runs a bunch in heat mode. Thanks to every one for your input.
Brian


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26 Aug 2009 11:09 AM
Posted By airhead1164 on 08/25/2009 9:12 PM
... Using the delta T at the air coils and thr measured CFM I determined the system output at the airhandlers.
... System #1 4 ton is putting out 36,054 BTUH
System #2 5 ton is putting out 50,225 BTUH
System #3 2 ton is putting out 9,623 BTUH

I had some COP calculations here, but have now removed them, due to later receiving some very helpful counsel (see below, later in the thread) on the COP algorithm.

The numbers above are air Heating Capacity, not Heat of Extraction. 

Best regards,

Bill



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26 Aug 2009 11:20 AM
Bill, I believe you're double counting the compressor power - since he measured actual heat output at the coil it should already include any contribution from the compressor. This would make the COPs 3.3, 2.9, and 1.8 respectively. Also, assuming a power factor of 1 is a big assumption and probably not accurate, so the real COPs would be somewhat higher.


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26 Aug 2009 11:21 AM
Yes Brian

I'm with you. With the "hole in the envelope". Is there a Exhaust air systems ("Stove vent" 1200 CFM ?, for example)

Looking back at the original Chart posted on Kw usage. The house is using as much as the air conditioning systems. is there Well pumps, fountain pumps, etc.

I had a couple, who had a server in their house producing incredible heat, hooked up with a stereo systems, 500 can lights. You know, I shouldn't be telling you. I'm sure you checked all that.

Seems like, if one seems out of whack, it's the 4 ton. Hours running is higher then the 5 and 2 ton systems. I know you did not do the duct work, but how are the returns on the second floor. as you know,Duct work can KILL a system!!!

Jack


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26 Aug 2009 11:31 AM
Consolidating the recent numbers, you have:
8/16: heat pump consumption: 13+37+40 = 90kwh. Total consumption: 166. => house consumption = 76kwh which is excessive
8/17: heat pump consumption: 40+48+18 = 106kwh. Total consumption: 129 = > house consumption = 23kwh which is reasonable.
8/24: heat pump consumption: 2+9+7 = 18kwh. Total consumption: 74 => house consumption = 56kwh which is high.
8/25: heat pump consumption: 3+11+16 = 30kwh. Total consumption: 72 => house consumption = 42kwh which is high.

The heat pumps are using far more than one would expect on the cooling days. Given that the current draw seems reasonable, that implies that the units are running more than expected. We really need to know how much cooling is actually delivered to the house on these warmer days. Temperature drop for each system after they've been running most of the day is the critical piece of missing information. If they're pumping out the BTUs expected, then the only conclusion to draw is that there's a huge thermal hole in the house. If they're not, then the only conclusion is that there's a fault with the ground loops or system operation.




Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2009 12:58 PM
Posted By cnygeo on 08/26/2009 11:20 AM
... I believe you're double counting the compressor power - since he measured actual heat output at the coil it should already include any contribution from the compressor. This would make the COPs 3.3, 2.9, and 1.8 respectively.

... assuming a power factor of 1 is a big assumption and probably not accurate, so the real COPs would be somewhat higher.

(deleted COP comments.  Mr. Cnygeo pointed out correct details of the COP algorithm, which was much appreciated (see later in this thread).)

Best regards,

Bill



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26 Aug 2009 01:31 PM

Posted By tinoue on 08/26/2009 11:31 AM
Consolidating the recent numbers, you have:
8/16: heat pump consumption: 13+37+40 = 90kwh.
8/17: heat pump consumption: 40+48+18 = 106kwh.
8/24: heat pump consumption: 2+9+7 = 18kwh.
8/25: heat pump consumption: 3+11+16 = 30kwh.

... If they're pumping out the BTUs expected, then the only conclusion to draw is that there's a huge thermal hole in the house. If they're not, then the only conclusion is that there's a fault with the ground loops or system operation.



I added "BTUs expected" to help the analysis and provide persepctive:

8/16: heat pump consumption: 13+37+40 = 90kwh = 1350 KBTU Heat Rejection
8/17: heat pump consumption: 40+48+18 = 106kwh = 1590 KBTU HR
8/24: heat pump consumption: 2+9+7 = 18kwh = 270 KBTU HR
8/25: heat pump consumption: 3+11+16 = 30kwh = 450 KBTU HR

I used a factor of 15 BTU/Watt, reflecting what's reasonably accomplishable with water-to-air GSHP technology, to convert KWH consumed to KBTU Heat Rejection, and assumed DX units typically perform at or better.

Amen: "If they're pumping out the BTUs expected, then the only conclusion to draw is that there's a huge thermal hole in the house. If they're not, then the only conclusion is that there's a fault with the ground loops or system operation."

And if the DX units are working fine, then it's an awfully big hole.  And if the DX units are not working fine, something's getting awfully hot to burn up the indicated KWH.  It will be interesting to hear what's found from an on site examination.

Best regards,

Bill






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airhead1164User is Offline
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26 Aug 2009 05:13 PM
Thanks to everyone. Tommorow I will measure sensible and latent capacity of the units. I really wish I could find an Aeroseal contractor. My worst fear is bad return air duct system to the second floor. I guess it is time to break out the flow hood and confirm.
Brian


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26 Aug 2009 06:36 PM
Brian,

If you get to the point that you think it's the ducts, a low-tech trick you might try is to seal up the duct system except for one register and blow in theatrical smoke with duct blaster. This is a very simple, yet effective way of finding leaks.


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27 Aug 2009 10:50 AM
Joe asked what refrigerant, I'm curious as well but betting it is R22. Please confirm.

I don't know DX, but why are the suction temps and pressures so low?

Surely the ground in MI in August is about as warm as it gets, especially after all the cooling power / heat rejected in the past couple months. Other data earlier posted suggests units only putting out 50-75% of nominal rating in heat mode. That's another bad sign. What will they do in January?

The amps don't look too out of line but the systems' heat outputs seem low, and COPs calculated by others seem low for this time of year.

I betting on either short loops or really really poor loop-to-ground contact and heat transfer

If mother nature and schedules cooperate, I'd really like to see pressure and temperature data in cooling mode. If I'm correct, we'll see very high discharge temps and pressures, high amps and low capacity.

Cooling capacity shortfall may be partly masked by the fact that the units are way oversized for cooing.

Was a shortfall in heating capacity last winter masked by heavy use of strips (house comfortable but electricity use very high)?

I'm not sure I'd go as low as 0.8 for PF. I have limited data suggesting my 3 ton WF is at 0.9 or higher. I'm not sure if this bears on DX but I figure the compressors are similar.




Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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27 Aug 2009 11:11 AM
Posted By engineer on 08/27/2009 10:50 AM
... The amps don't look too out of line but the systems' heat outputs seem low, and COPs calculated by others seem low for this time of year.

... I'm not sure I'd go as low as 0.8 for PF. I have limited data suggesting my 3 ton WF is at 0.9 or higher. I'm not sure if this bears on DX but I figure the compressors are similar.


Curt, thanks.

(deleted COP comments)

Parenthetically, I believe measurements today are being made, in cooling mode.  Don't know if the measurements will include preasure readings though.

Best regards,

Bill



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27 Aug 2009 11:37 AM
Posted By a0128958 on 08/26/2009 12:58 PM
With respect to COP: my guess is each (major) manufacturer measures COP their own way.  While WaterFurnace measures COP using the algorithm I used, (and thus is the COP formular I'm familiar with,) this may not be the case for the manufacturer of this DX system.  I'll add another asumption note to clarify that I'm guessing on the calculation used by the DX system manufacturer.
Bill, if I'm reading the numbers correctly and he did quote heat output at the air coil, there is no question of manufacturer's methods. The COP is heat output relative to power input, period. If you want to split hairs you could factor in whatever heat is coming off the cabinet into the mechanical room, but at the end of the day all we care about is heat out/power in. Your method is correct if he was quoting heat absorption from the ground loop, but my impression was that he posted heat output. If WF used the method above to calculate their COPs the ARI would probably have something to say about it!



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27 Aug 2009 11:50 AM

Posted By cnygeo on 08/27/2009 11:37 AM

... he did quote heat output at the air coil
... Your method is correct if he was quoting heat absorption from the ground loop, but my impression was that he posted heat output.

If WF used the method above to calculate their COPs the ARI would probably have something to say about it!


Wow!  Thank you!  I forgot that COP is measured on the input side (water in my case, and I guess R22 in the case of DX).

Clearly the numbers provided were air Heating Capacity, and not Heat of Extraction.  Thus, my guess is a good number more assumptions would have to be made to compute COP.

Since the COP numbers I computed are wrong, I've removed them from earlier in this thread.

Thank you for helping on this.

Best regards,

Bill


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American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
draoUser is Offline
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27 Aug 2009 12:04 PM

You asked about energy consumption in winter?
 
Here's my wallet blowing -OUTRAGEOUS electric bill for January 09.

Total KWH consumption :
                                        6749 KWH in addition to 276 ccf gas consumption(back up for my 4 ton and 5 ton units). Only my 2 ton unit has aux electrical strip heat. My utility bill a WHOPPING $ 1040.21.  Price per kwh 6.25 cents.

                                       In comparison, my Jan 08 utility bill, with conventional natural gas heating was $641.39 (electrical consumption 1339 kwh and gas -486 ccf).

  Brian  consulted the company/Mike several times prior to this and they did very little!  Mike made one visit in January 09 and was so patronizing!
                              They would ask Brian to tweak this and that and change this or that part that Brian very religiously did.   In frustration I sent a 18-20 page fax of bills present and past on 02/12/09 to their leadership to get the problem fixed and confirmed receipt.  When I received no response back, I called this individual and even had a not so pleasant conversation in the presence of their certified contractor-Brian who was on one more of his trips to FIX the problem! Even then no urgency to take care of the problem.  To put, a stop to the hemorrhage, I asked Brian to switch my 4 and 5 ton systems to emergency back up gas which he did and my March 09 bill for February usage dropped to $736.09(4470 Kwh because of partial month geo thermal and 224 gas ccf).  It was finally the end of March 09 before their engineer Russ showed up and did a "thorough" analysis of the system based on different  data points and suggested some major changes all of which was promptly done by Brian including a redig of my yard on the side of my 4 ton and 5 ton units in early May 09.  

                                  Summer temps have been so cool to moderate making it difficult to measure usage till finally with  intense pressure  to take care of the issue before the weather turns, the sub meters were put in Aug 13th 09.  One thing is certain, my hand is forced to take care of this issue one way or the other!  



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