The well-drillers just finished drilling 3 of 5 wells for our 5 ton WaterFurnace Envision system. They will drill the other 2 tomorrow morning. We live in the Allegheny Mountains of SW PA. Our system has been designed to support 2800 sq. ft of living space at 95% heating capacity. We have an unfinished basement of 800 sq ft, and the rest of the house is over a crawlspace. Our 5 Ton Envision system includes a 20 kW auxiliary heat strip and all ductwork. We had fuel-oil fired hot water radiators before, [which I removed separately from WF costs]. Thus all ductwork was a retrofit installation from scratch for the contractor. We have been running off the auxiliary heat strip the past week since our lows are in the high 40's to mid-50's now. The entire system should be operational Monday.

Our costs: $25863 for the 5 Ton Envision unit with 20kW heat strip and ductwork, well-drilling, and all hook-ups. Excavation is excluded at my request, as I have an existing relationship with a local company and contracted separately with them.

Excavation --- $400

I had to upgrade electrical service to 200 amps to support the unit's electrical requirements at a cost of $1880.

Incidental costs have been approx. $300 for a gopher to help me remove the old radiators and piping, sawzall blades, CPVC water pipe and some electrical components/wiring ... had to relocate a couple water pipes and an electrical outlet that interfered with the ducting.

So total cost is $28446.

I'll be installing "The Energy Detective" Model 5000 tomorrow so I can track the unit's actual power consumption ... and supposedly everything else in my home [cost $360 (of which $30 is Fedex charge) with extra set of current transformers and extra transmitter unit]..

KJ

Sounds good, keep us advised.

I'm also interested in your experience with  and opinion of TED monitor

<!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE AR-SA MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:1; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-format:other; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> <!--[if gte mso 10]> Since this thread is already about Geo installation costs. I have a question. From everything I’ve read here and  other places, geo still seems to be at LEAST 2x more than reg. HP and usually closer to 3x as much.  Besides the horizontal loop or wells dug…..what makes it sooo exp?? I would think the actual units would cost less than a reg. HP because it has fewer parts? Is the duct work more exp? I’m talking about new construction not remodel .  It just boggles my mind. I built a 3900sf heated 2 story brick, 2 yrs ago and had a total of 6.5 tons/var. speed, 14 SEER HP installed for a total of less than 12 grand turnkey.  From what I’ve learned here if this were geo it would’ve probably been closer to 40 grand! Why sooo much of a difference??  Pros, Installers, can you please explain exactly(in detail would be great!) to me why they cost so much more?

I'm not an expert, just a homeowner that has installed a geothermal system. We have 2 units and 1 common closed loop, 5 tons total. Typical pricing was roughly $30,000 although we paid closer to $25,000 (just lucked out with one quote) with a lot of bells and whistles ($1,100 85 gallon Marathon water heater, $700 total for 2 Prestige thermostats with outdoor and wireless sensors/controls, top of the line WF Envision units, 2 desuperheaters). After the tax credit, our system will have cost us $17,500. Two new 13 SEER Trane units would have cost us about $10,000. For us, paying a 75% premium over a conventional system was a no brainer. While I'm not aware of any direct comparison, I believe that our units are more than twice as efficient as a conventional 14 SEER units. You are paying for top of the line technology, research and development, dual stage scroll compressors, units that are estimated to last roughly 25 years, ground loops that can be reused in 25 years (replacement cost should be much less since the ground loops can be reused), desuperheaters to cut domestic water heating costs. The installation time (including the ground loop and trenching) for our retrofit was roughly 160 man hours with only some minor duct changes. I agree with you that the systems are expensive and look forward to reading more direct responses to your question.

I hear what your saying geome.......but it just seems IMO that these are fairly new and 'green' that the mfg feel they can get a premium for them and the installer feels the same way so the consumer gets hit from all sides. The tax credits do help.....maybe... if both the above didn't increase their prices 'because' of the tax credit. Would really like to hear from a pro, installers explaining in detail why these cost so much. Ex. If the installer installed all of the ducts and installed the 5 ton unit(I know if won't work without the loops), what would this cost? Basically everything except the ground loops.

Costs have much to do with productivity. The heat pump numbers produced each year is increasing, but they are still a small portion of the entire market. Our supplier, Enertech MFG., has steadily increased production over the last several years, meaning our cost of Ground Source Heat Pumps has gone DOWN over the last year. Manufactures are not raising prices, thinking they are going to skin a fat hog, because of the tax credits. I have no doubt that some contractors are upping their prices, we are not. If a contractor in our area tries jacking the prices we will benefit by it in increased sales.

Bergy

Well ... [pun intended !] ... the well-drillers finished our wells yesterday morning. My front yard looks like it suffered a mortar attack !! The excavator parked his backoe/trencher here late yesterday, so Monday morning it looks like the final phase of the job will commence. The drilling was interesting, and impressive, to watch. Very loud and lots of dust [anybody out there clean windows ?]. When you watch the drillers lay out the 176 ft. long Geo tube across the yard, then put it down in the 165 ft. hole you comprehend just how deep these holes are.

Engineer : I installed the TED 5000 yesterday. It took about 30 minutes at the service panel and another 30 minutes at the computer. I do not recommend just anyone install this unit ... only if you have comfortably worked around your Main Service Panel before. Since you're an 'engineer' I assume you're experienced, but for any novices reading this, those volts and amps on the mains coming into your house are lethal !! If you get a TED 5000, the instructions and Quick-Start guide in the box aren't the best sources of installation info. There is a mini-CD in the box which has these documents and the pdf User's Manual on it. Read the docs and the Users Manual first. They recommend hooking the gateway to a router. I don't have one, so I did option 2 --- going into the computer Ethernet RJ-45 directly. The Quick-Start Guide tells you if you do this you "may" have to change your computer's IP address ... but the guide doesn't tell you what address you need. That info is on pages 31 and following in the User's Guide. The company also recommends using a separate circuit from your computer.

Here are two websites with user input about the TED 5000 ... this is where I got my clue to look in the User's Manual when I couldn't get the software to start [the Footprints software is installed in the Gateway unit].

http://fivepercent.us/2009/08/21/ted-5000-the-energy-detective-released-and-i-have-one/

 http://blog.mapawatt.com/2009/07/02/ted-5000-installed/

So far the device is very interesting. I have as CTU [current transformer unit] on my mains and another on the 60 amp cicuit for the WaterFurnace Envision unit. Since we're not actually running the Envision unit yet I have nothing to report. The aux. heater does show up quite clearly using the softyware's load analysis routines, since it sucks amps --- approx. 6kW on low and approx 18 kW on high. Ther software has a learning curve, so I know I have a bit to learn about it, but its going to be very useful. You can flip a light off and on and see the kW usage change quickly.

The display is not necessary ... the Footprints software dashboard ouptuts much more detail ... but the display is "cute" and convenient for a location not too far away from the computer in another room.

I'll let you know more after I've figured it out.

KJ

If you choose to ignore a component of the geo system that adds thousands of dollars to every installation, then I have no idea why geo costs so much ;)
Seriously though;
The difference between a new construction bid with quality duct work and high end conventional equipment vs a geo system without loops or tax credits is nominal. With tax credits the geo could easily be cheaper.
Most lowest bid shoppers percieve all heating systems as the same and hire the guys who do code minimum work. You will not find a lot of code minimum duct guys in geo, so there appears to be a price difference there but it is not an apples to apples comparison.
joe

<!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE AR-SA MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:1; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-format:other; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:Arial; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> <!--[if gte mso 10]> Joe….I know that can definitely add to the cost. Of course if you have big rocks or ledge can make a big difference. But I’m trying to find out exactly what makes geo so astronomical  more exp. than reg. HP from everything I've read on this site. You are taking into account of the tax rebates. The tax rebates are there in the first place because the feds want people to be greener and save energy.

I don’t know what slinkies cost but a good back hoe guy would run around $125/hr. He could dig the trench probably in one day here. Cost $1000. Once the slinkies are installed by the ‘labors’ working for the geo company.  Then the crew chief/owner  will inspect.  After this point you hire a bobcat company to come out and fill in the trench at around $60/hr. Cost for one day, $420. Let’s just round it up to $1500 bucks for the entire trench work. If you need a bulldozer instead of a bobcat, the total cost would be around $2000 bucks. Probably if the geo company owns this equipment this would be the final cost to the home owner……but if the geo company hires an outside sub. This price would probably double for the home owner.

This does not add that much compared to a reg HP. Reasonable payback.

Just curious, how many of the installers out there have this equip?

So right here the cost would probably be around 4 grand more(plus the slinky/labor work) than a reg HP. WTH makes geo soooo fricking much more????????????????????????????? Are the units 2x/3x or more exp…..the ductwork 2x more exp?????????????????   I’ve got a feeling the installers here are not going to actually tell us.

The following was not posted by me.  I just copied it here for you.

Hi.

I'm new to the forums.

I've installed some EarthLinked DX systems. I can't talk for water source systems, other than they cost more.

The conversation here is out of line. You're basically calling me (an HVAC contractor) a lying cheat.

I'm going to list my approximate costs and what I charge on a bid for a 4 ton system--just for forced air heating and cooling.

Cost of materials on a typical 4 ton system includes:
4 ton heat pump: $3,690
4 ton vertical ground loop: $2,255
125' of line set, approx. $1,100-$1,300
R-22 refrigerant, $200
Nitrogen, $45
heat pump thermostat, $200
duct, including the grilles, registers, duct seal, (always varies greatly), let's say it's a new home, 2000 s.f. per level, basement and main (NOT A RETROFIT COST): $2,400
condensate drain: $50-$100, depending if a pump is needed
acetylene and brazing rod: $50
freight: $450

This totals about $11,300. Next, I'll have to pay sales tax on all of this. That's an additional $710. Now my total material cost is $12,010.

Next, I have labor to install the above. It'll cost me about $45 per hour to pay my guys. This includes worker's comp, non-productive time, etc. I'll have to pay about $4,800 in labor. I'll also have to pay about 30% labor taxes on that. That adds another $1,440. So my total labor costs hopefully don't exceed $6,240. This is not my profit, this is my labor COST. In other areas, I've heard of the hourly cost being upwards of $85 per hour. (because of labor unions and dues, I'm told)

Overhead is next. I know this one, along with labor, varies greatly across the US. For my small company, and small amount of sales, I have to cover at least $1,800 of overhead for this job. This could easily need to be $3,500+ or so.

Now there's mileage. It costs me (just a pure cost) about $1.00 per mile of travel with a service/install truck. This is gas, tires, service and insurance. Let's say the mileage is only $100.

So, my costs (still haven't added drilling or excavation) total about $20,150.

Now, how much money do I need to survive? Are you okay with me getting $50,000 per year? It'll take about 1 week for us to get this system installed. Let's say (I wish) that I can sell 1 system per week. That would be phenomenal, but improbable. So, for 50 weeks/year, at $50,000 per year, that's $1,000 per system. Let me tell you, if I'm only making $1,000 per system, I'm going to go bankrupt. Why? because eventually--inevitably--I'll have to return to a system to fix it on warranty. Whether it's my fault or the manufacturer's, it costs me time, fuel, and materials to go back. Of course, we all want the system to never have problems, but...

Typically, I need to make at least $3,500 per system. So now, without drilling and excavation, the total is $23,650. When I can get a driller, they're typically $10 per foot in my area. So, for a 4 ton, that's $4,000 drilling. Now the price is up to $27,650. I'll need a backhoe for a day, another $350. So, I'm an even $28,000. This isn't always the case, but it's a good fair guess as to how much I'd charge. If an installer needs to make $5,000 per system, good for them. It's not a rip-off. You're getting exactly what supply/demand dictates. A fair price for a fair product.

Remember, this is for a NEW home. NOT a retrofit. For a house without duct, that needs it retrofitted, it'll cost me double the labor and overhead. It'll cost about 50% more on duct materials, and my liability is higher, too. It also takes longer, so I can't do as many systems.

Before anyone rags on me for wanting to make a profit, let me say this. I'm installing the most comfortable, reliable, efficient, safe, green heating and cooling system available. Do you get a Mercedes car for the price of a Yugo? Is a Yugo just as comfortable and safe as a Mercedes? No. You pay extra for a better product.

I'm installing a system in your house that will actually pay for itself in savings. How about your kitchen cabinets? The carpet? the tile? window and door trims? No. Geothermal is the best bang for the buck. Do I wish my costs were lower? Absolutely. When they become lower, I can lower my price. But until then, I have to maintain the price as it is, or I'll go bankrupt. Why do you all want us HVAC guys to go bankrupt?

So right here the cost would probably be around 4 grand more(plus the slinky/labor work) than a reg HP. WTH makes geo soooo fricking much more????????????????????????????? Are the units 2x/3x or more exp…..the ductwork 2x more exp?????????????????

Robin I don't know what numbers you are working with but must of the units I put in are 15 to 20K. If we use your numbers of raw cost for the loops at 4K and concede that the loop contractor is entitiled to make a few grand (for sundries such as gas, equipment depreciation and liability insurance) and take a high end airsource system at 8 to 9 grand....voila; you've got 15K.
Throw in some tax credits and geo is cheaper in this scenario.
You are focusing on large projects with some very expensive vertical bores. In these cases your back hoe doesn't work, you need a 1/2 million dollar drill rig and grout pump and it's not cheap work, 1 county in our area even charges a $300 per bore permit fee.
Cost of doing business varies regionally as well so when you watch a site that discusses nation wide installations you can't compare the cost of doing a job in Howell MI to a job in Boston Mass. Their cost of doing business (liability insurance, unemployment insurance, health insurance, comp insurance etc.) is much higher than mine. Another example of this is the well permit issue mentioned above. In this case a 5 ton vertical system in one county will cost $1,200 more than in adjacent counties that ask for one permit per job.
If you get your 3 bids and find they are all within $1,000 or so (5-10%) then that is a good example of the going rate in your area. The going rate is not pulled from a hat, it is a combination of the job cost, business orperating cost and suitable margin to do the job. The margin is the lowest number we are comfortable working for (lest we be highest bidder and not get the job). If you have one very low bid you have likely stumbled on to "the new guy" who has little idea of what his job cost is and is headed for trouble.

I’ve got a feeling the installers here are not going to actually tell us.

I can't explain this much better. You are right that the sum of all materials does not equal the price of an installation, but isn't that a bit like saying a car is nothing but a couple tons of metal; and scrap iron is only $125/ton right now?
Your tone is a tad hostile and the root of your frustration is really in your question not our answers. The "why it cost so much answer" is throughout this site. If you choose to ignore components of the installation or cost of doing business (like what it takes to turn 2 tons of scrap metal into a car) then you will continue to be frustrated.

Finally you ask about sheet metal requirements, they are not specific to type of heat pump. ASHP and GSHP require the same amount of duct per manufacturer and by code. Check your system that you are using for the comparison tell us the btu's and the sqare inches of return at the air handler or furnace. Let's see if you got a pro or a hack before using their price as a measuring stick.
J

I too take exception to the conspiracy theory espoused here. As has been said, one can't ignore the cost of the waterside, particularly if it is vertical loop. My dad just had a water well drilled in New Hampshire and the driller told him the rig cost $600k, and a brand new replacement would be $1 million. Depreciation and operating costs of such an expensive piece of equipment must be recouped from each and every bore it drills.

What hasn't been said is the differing mindset of the pros here vs the typical low-bid code-minus air source hack. Taking the time to learn to execute this new technology correctly requires an extraordinary commitment. That in turn manifests itself in all the other aspects of a project that make a huge difference in cost and comfort for the decades one of these systems should last. A pro installing geo will also assure that the system matches the house load, that the ducts match the room loads, that zoning is thoughtfully deployed, that split systems are correctly charged, that ductwork delivers the right amount of conditioned air to the rooms rather than to the attic or outdoors, that a two stage system is properly controlled, that blower CFM settings are correctly selected, that duct supply and return grills / registers are properly sized and located. A supply register can either draft Granny in her rocking chair or imperceptibly counter the load imposed by a nearby window or outside wall. Ask your low bid hack if he knows the difference.

Many if not most hack systems are both oversized and underducted, a miserable combination promising poor humidity control, high operating cost, excessive noise, mold, discomfort, and short-lived equipment. But it'll be cheap up front. If you value cheap up front above all else, go for it. One of us may eventually be called upon to solve the problems, perhaps by a future owner of your house, and we'll do what we can, for a price.

The 30% federal subsidy may now appear a trough for feeding unscrupulous contractors, but it will drive down costs by greatly increasing the number of units sold, in turn increasing the number of contractors, drillers, manufacturers, etc.

A long post, but trying to emphasize here the tradeoffs of high upfront costs vs. expectation of future high efficiency and low operating costs.
As a consumer, let me put my 2 cents worth in. As you have surmised from my recent posts, our geothermal system installation has been in-work for the last 3 weeks. Previously in life, when I was younger and dumber, I have had 2 air-exchange heat pumps installed in a home we have in Florida and I had an air-exchange heat pump split system coupled to a natural gas furnace installed in a previous home in Pittsburgh.
The 1st Florida air exchange system cost around $3000-$3200 for a 2 ½ ton Carrier unit with ductwork back in 1982. It took 1-1/2 days. The ductwork was simply R6 insulated flex duct through our attic.
The 4 ton unit I had installed in Pittsburgh required re-work of all the basement ducting, but the remainder of the house was left as-is. That unit [ 4 ton heat pump and basement gas furnace/air handler] and basement-only ductwork cost me $8500. The ductwork was sheet-metal, but was unlined. Since I was use to the noise of the previous system, the persistence of the noise level from the ductwork didn’t register with me as unusual.
Two years ago I had a new 3-ton Trane air-exchange heat pump installed in my Florida home at a cost of $5800 for the air handler and outside condenser heat-pump. The only ductwork involved was reconstruction the top supply ductwork to interface with the existing ductwork. The job took less than 7 hours.
The current WaterFurnace 5 ton Envision system we are getting with retrofit ductwork and 5 vertical wells is and has-been a labor-intensive effort. Installation of the unit and the ductwork alone throughout the basement and crawlspace used 2 men for 3-1/2 full work days and one guy for an additional 2-1/2 days. The entire ductwork system is sheet-metal … the large supply and return ducts are lined interiorly. In the crawlspace all ductwork is wrapped externally. Dampers are installed in numerous locations for control and to prevent noise rushes through the grilles [without dampers the grille dampers become the only means to diminish the volume of air, and this creates substantial noise at the grille --- this is one of the reasons why my house in Pittsburgh was noisy [code-minimum]. This ductwork is VERY quiet … I am impressed, and I know these guys did a professional installation way beyond ‘code-minimum’. Of course, I’m paying for that with an increased cost … which I accept.
When you see the well-drillers pull up with their half-million dollar-plus drilling rig and a 2nd large water tanker complete with crane, huge air compressor, grouting machine, welder, etc [at least $150K or more there in equipment] you really start to understand just how serious of a project this is. The well-drillers started at 630 am Th, worked til 3pm, and came back the next morning for another 5-1/2 hours to complete the drilling. Wells 3 and 4 hit ‘big’ rock just after ground penetration, so we knew we’d have some additional excavation problems getting the rock broken up without damaging the installed geo-pipe during excavation.
I thought the excavation would be the easy part of the job … it went fairly smoothly, but my expectation [and the contractor’s] of 50% rock soon proved low as about 80% of my front yard is rock. To bed the tubing more safely in this rocky soil, we brought in 10 additional tons of rock dust … the contractor usually counts on using the rock dust created by drilling, but we definitely need more. Also instead of backfilling with the rock-laden fill, we’ll haul it away and bring in clean fill and topsoil. These extra truckloads are driving the ‘incidental’ costs up several hundred dollars, but it is in-line with my earlier budget estimates. We thought drilling through our 18 inch stonewall foundation to make access holes for the piping coming from the manifolds to the flow controller would take an hour or two … it took nearly 5, with two of us --- one chiseling from the outside, one in the basement. Today the manifold is being connected to the well tubing, and it looks like the leak check will occur in an hour or so. Tomorrow we’ll backfill if all goes well with the leak check, and the job should be done. Couple the work with light rain, and it’s a bit messy working today.
My point in this narrative --- there is an awful lot involved in a geothermal installation … esp. vertical loop systems. Its way beyond your average air-exchange installation. You have to pay for these costs upfront --- it’s a fact of life. The trade-off is the ‘expectation’ of future efficient and low-cost heating [and cooling]. People I k now with geothermal systems are satisfied and brag about the much lower operating costs. I will see how it all unfolds as this fall and winter season begins to set in. In about 5-10 years those of you out there wondering whether the upfront costs are worth it will have a much larger database to look at to judge whether geothermal is ‘worth it’.

kj... great post ! thanks

KJ,
Well put.
The funny thing is that ASHP requirements by code and manufacturer are the same as GSHP.
It's a shame you had to pay twice for the same duct requirements.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Joe

No one wants to be raked over the coals but it is in everyone's interest that the folks installing this stuff make enough to feed, house and clothe their families so as to stay in business and support these systems for the decades they should last.

Do you want code minimum ductwork or that which will let the system approach its AHRI efficiency?

engineer.......I agree with what you're saying. Just trying to get actual facts here. Everybody keeps talking about the tax rebates.....these are ONLY temp. It seems everyone is using that as an excuse for exorbint pricicing.  Also, everyone keeps saying about the payback. YES........IF you are young enough to benefit. BUT if it's your LAST house it probably won't have a payback in your lifetime. I'm trying to find out why these are sooooo expensive over a reg HP. I mentioned several times that I KNOW the trenches or wells can add extra expense. That can vary from job to job. Just trying to find out if the tonnage and duct work ONLY is soooo different in price than a reg HP.....Nobody seems to want to answer this easy question. Again....NOT trying to be a PITA.....but it makes me wonder why nobody wants to answer this.............When everybody ignores this it makes them 'look' like they are hiding something......IMO......AGAIN.....I am NOT trying to find out HOW much they make dollar wise or %.....

What you are probably seeing is (non) economies of scale. On the air source side little one man shows have low costs, and bigger outfits make it on volume.

There are many more mfgs of airsource units, and companies such as Goodman drives prices down. Air source units are manufactured in vastly greater numbers and aren't as complex as geo - no plumbing other than the condensate drain line.

Air source is simpler to install, so the folks that do it needn't be paid as much.

OK ... forgetting my incidental expenses, excavation, and the electrical service panel upgrade, the WaterFurnace Envision 5 unit with desuperheater, high quality ductwork, and all labor associated with installing the ductwork, plumbing the desuperheater, drilling the wells, installing the geo-pipe in the wells, running the pipe through the foundation, constructing and thermally welding the manifold and all connections ... sums to $25863.

When I inquired about the possibility of a smaller unit, I was told the well-drilling costs would reduce by about $1800 per well eliminated and the unit cost by around $1000 per ton. Now I don't really know if that means the drillers charged 5 x $1800 = $9000 for our 5 wells with geopipe installed in bentamite grout. Perhaps that may be accurate, but you would have to specifically contact a well-driller and ask him just how much he charges for his entire part of the project. There's probably an initial base charge just for bringing in all the equipment ... then additional wells get cheaper the more you want. Sort of like donuts --- buy the first dozen for $5 then the next dozen is $2.50. When I inquired 2 years ago about having a new water well drilled on my property [to a depth of 135 ft vs the 165 ft for the geo-wells] I was quoted a ballpark of $3500 for a single well. So you can figure that the geo system well drilling/geopipe installation is somewhere between $9000 to $12000 for a 5 ton system. If you want more accuracy than that you'll need to ask for a quote from a contractor.

Lets say $10000 for my 5 wells ... $25863 - $10000 = $15863 for the 5 ton Envision unit with desuperheater, high quality ductwork installed from scratch, plumbing the desuperheater, plus the piping, manifoild, and hookup to the ground loop , along with purging and filling the ground loops [that job will be done this morning at my home and hopefully the unit will be operationals this afternoon]. That purging and filling requires probably at least 4 mnore man hours [2 guys at 2 hrs].

A poster wrote here that a 5 ton Envision unit should go for around $11000 with desuperheater. That's probably a good figure, leaving the ductwork and plumbing at around $4863 ... basically $5000.

Since you want a price for the unit and ductwork only, you might deduct say those 4 man hours for purging and filling plus 8 man hours for the manifold construction, pipe laying, hookup [2 guys at 4 hrs each], another 2 hours for plumbing the desuperheater, one more for flushing the old water heater 4 times for the first time in its life [how many of you flush your water heaters annually like you're supposed to ?]. I suppose you might charge these man-hours out at $25 per hr minimum for the tech and another $15-$20 perhour overhead cost [equipment depreciation, workman's comp, taxes, congressional junkets, etc]. As you can see nit-picking these 'incidental' costs can alter the true cost to you by several hundreds of dollars, and the only way you'll get beyond these ball-park numbers is by obtaining an actual quote. ... and please remmeber, I am only a consumer, not a contractor, installer, or well-driller.

The system is expensive ... I suffered sticker-shock when I first obtained quotes. I doubt I would have gone this route without the tax credits --- I probably would have had a new oil-fired boiler installed to replace my failed boiler. However, the tax credits are in play at this time, and they make the system 'economically viable' at this point [its nice to get to use some of my tax dollars for my own welfare instaead of the general welfare of everyone else]. Whether the tax credits have driven up the price is not something I can quantify ... I do know that 3-1/2 years ago when I first inquired about geothermal systems [DX] I was told the ballpark cost was $3000 - $3300 per ton WITHOUT an air handler or ductwork.

I do hope the contractors make a decent profit !