"While I am generally pro geo, "how much does it add on the home resale market" is a legitimate concern if you aren't going to live there for very long. I'll add that while DOE is pretty good, I don't see standard deviations on their predictions and they are subject to political pressure."

The how much does it add is a tricky one at this point. We know that propane house values are demonstrably 10% lower than homes with nat gas, but that does not automatically equate to geo. I think it is finding it's way towards value add, but it may be awhile before we can quantify that.

To your first comment both my recent examples had the cost difference erased by expense savings in about 3 years (or 1 year for any economist who finds a tax credit worthy of factoring in). I think they notion that payback horizon is many years down the road is somewhat mythical.

knotET
"could someone put a contract and a 10 year estimate price of maintenance on this posting for all, too..?"

I'm not sure how you arrived at the "break even" conclusion. One example I cited had the homeowner saving $1,500/yr pre tax credit for $30 more/mo than propane furnace and AC that cost $1,500 more/year to operate. Son geo costs a little over $10,000 yr to operate over $30 years and the propane furnace and air over 50K in operating expense + 20K (remember they would have financed the first ten thou. anyway) in mortgage payments. Wanna consider tax credits the cost difference for propane during life of mortgage in this case about 70K if propane and electricity stay flat.

Maintenance, annual checks for both around $100. Repairs for the furnace more often. Repair cost is getting volitile in both systems right now as multi stage and variable speed products have very expensive parts. Both systems are not likely to last 30 years though geo is likely to last longer than a furnace in my AO. Once loop system is in place, the geo system costs little more than a highend furnace and air to replace.

Lest I forget more Todd fact fudging:

"My point is about real risk, with almost one in four mortgage holders owing more than their house, and it has two parts:

Increase your mortgage payment in a sucky job market = bad.

Increase mortgage principal in a sucky real estate market = bad. "

Quantify please how many of the upside down mortgage holders are simply victims of buying at the wrong time. Many who bought real estate from '01 on are upside down whether they re-fied or not. I have a second home in this category.

The housing surplus has actually diminished to where housing starts are more frequent and at a 5+ yr high. Yes banks are still afraid to lend, but people are borrowing and building.

I don't even know how to respond to the sucky job market thing except to suggest that people with job woes could probably use an extra $100/mo in their pocket.

70K for the privelage of owning propane furnace = bad.

Propane furnace in a home you are trying to sell = bad

Posted By toddm on 03 May 2012 12:25 PM
We're talking risk, Joe. I can save money on propane if I have to. The bank wants its monthly vig regardless. I might still be able to make it work if I could sell it for what I paid. That's not the case either. Finance isn't all that hard. Assume you are going to make mistakes, because you are, and do what you can to make them small ones.

So given a choice of geo and an extra $30/mo on the mortgage payment (which is really $81) and an extra $6k on the principal ($16k in fact), I'd take a ductless heat pump which ACTUALLY IS $30/mo and $6k extra on the note.

Posted By toddm on 03 May 2012 06:38 PM
If we agree that adding mortgage debt in this economy is risky business ...

Therefore, the magic number is what geo adds to the note ...

Oh yes, and adding debt in this economy is risky business.

Posted By toddm on 03 May 2012 07:45 PM
Haven't met looby but even less impressed. I see repeated offerings
from Bartletts I wonder, has this guy ever had an original thought?