Actually this is not true, the upper floors don't have to line up.  It is preferable if they do, however a steel or concrete beam can be used to support the upper floors.  I have already received ICF quotes for the house I'm building which has the upper floor side wall over the center of the garage (not lined up with the first floor ICF wall).

Lennox: Another variation to throw into your mix. I built this way in 1980 and have improved the design a bit for my new place in 2010. I found this to be the cheapest PER R VALUE, and since you are considering double walls anyway, that extra cost is not of concern. I burn about 9 btu/sf in Fairbanks with a similar wall, but a tad less R and not as tight as this one. Not shown in the pic is an OSB stabilizer joining the two walls; not sure I need it, but it seemed like a good idea, though I don't have it in my present house. I think this will work even better than what I have. At least it is food for thought. john

Here we go again, the famous 16" thick double framed "cheap" wall system that was posted on the SIP forum, under the thread "Sick of SIPs" on 2-18-09
At least on that post the author stated that his labor was "free". (Can you imagine the reaction of a framing contractor, who's not aboard with SIPs and/or ICF's, if he thought that he was going to have a shot at building a house with this system?) However, as I commented once before in connection with another "double framed" post, I sure hope that there aren't too many people who decide to go this route, or we'll deplete our timber resources sooner rather than later. Also, I don't think that you can actually purchase all of the materials that are needed to build this wall system for less than you would pay for SIPs that would give you at least equal, and probably better, thermal efficiency. That is "quality" materials, eg straight, dry lumber, etc. etc. Then, how is he going to construct the roof system? Is it going to be 48" thick, maybe 60", or ??????? Many have made the point on these forums that the roof system plays a more important role in energy efficiency than walls. Enough said, no insults intended, just continuing the friendly, professional, debate in connection with the subject topic.

Sipper: Oh. No insult intended? Funny. Starting out w/ "Here we go again, the famous...." Sipper, GSTH. I don't need or appreciate your tone, and I don't see what constructive information you have offered above. You have rather sounded (in more places than one) more like an irrational SIP lover than one who is open to other ideas. I have nothing against you beloved SIPs, but I don't know if they are practical for me up here. If you love 'em, go for it. I have reservations about their durability, too. What happens to the wall when a closet valve cracks and you have a flood? (I've had 2 now.) Does the glue hold to the foam? If not, you are sort of screwed, aren't you, w/ a SIP? I don't know, but it seems like it warrants more data. What do you do if you DO get a de-lamination down road? Isn't the strength of a SIP "totally" dependent on the shear strength of the glue holding the OSB and the foam together? That is also a concern I have; again, I dunno, just wonder. 2x4 walls are dirt cheap, Jack. Go to Ho De Po and see for yourself. If you have time, run the numbers, including shipping a freaking 9' x XX' wall to Fairbanks. Maybe you imagine that they just fly up here for free??? I've got a little news for you on that issue. I have run the numbers, and I'm very confident that this really IS cheap. And, yes, I really CAN "imagine the reaction of a framing contractor..." Do you think I am the only cat in town that has built this way? Do you think I have not run this by a handful of other people who build, some professionally, so who consult? As for the roof system, it is going to be "Fairbanks Standard"; trusses kicked up high enough at the wall to accommodate R-50. Hey. I have an idea. Maybe you can move up here and tell us all how to build. After all, we are still in the dark ages up here. No one has ever traveled Outside to a building conference, nor does anyone but me have access to the Internet or affiliation w/ any national construction academies. "Professional debate"? Huh? Sounds more like a diatribe, to me. May I suggest you read twice as much as you type? If you have something constructive to add, by all means, do so. If you are just airing, then OK, too, I guess.... but air somewhere else. I want INFORMATION.

JK,
Brush it off, there are ALOT of egg heads that post here. Question: why not dense pack cellulose into the cavity instead of fiberglass? Should perform better and be cheaper or on par with fiberglass.

Help! Some of you SIp and ICF "egg heads", the "Double Framed Wall (use as much lumber as we can, labor is cheap because I'm doing the work myself) guys" are ganging up on me!

The author of the original post, who started this thread, did not indicate that he had access to "free" labor, or that there was a problem shipping materials to his site. He indicated that he was considering several framing methods as well as SIPs and ICFs, and I provided him with relative information based on my opinions, knowledge, and experience*, in an earlier post. (*35 years in the construction industry, last 15 exclusively involved with SIPs, ICF's, and other "green" building materials)

In regard to SIPs delaminating, and other concerns as expressed by CK, I don't know how many more times we have to go through this, the system has been around for about 60 years pretty much in it's current form. Its accepted by every building jurisdiction that I'm aware of with endless accredited testing data, and code reports. I could go on and on, but it seems that someone who suggests that others "read more than they type" miight want to take that advice themselves. I hope that this is not starting to sound like a "diatribe", and I'm certainly not going to try to innvite anyone to GSTH just because they disagree with me here in this "friendly little forum"

In closing, I've said it before, and I'll say it again "A double wall framing system will be more thermally efficient than a single wall framing system IF done properly". And, if one has supply issues that prohibit the delivery of SIPs or ICFS, due to location, and "free or cheap" labor is available, and there is a ready supply of good quality lumber (At a cheap price) the DWF option may then be the best choice, OK?

In the interest of accuracy: Correction to my previous post, should have read "In regard to SIPs delaminating, and other concerns as expressed by JK....."
"

Greentree: I saw some of your posts in the "Wood is no good" thread, and agree w/ your thoughts. God, didn't that degenerate to an electron throwing match? "My Ford is better than your Chevy!" Brushed it off one second after I replied; over, done, and forgotten. Without pointing to anyone, yes, there are folks here that love their SIPs, and rave about them like they are The Holy Grail. Hey; they aren't. Some folks act like they are free, carbon-neutral, perfect in all building regards, and their erection time is measured in nanoseconds (mine is measured in hours, and by then I've fallen asleep). In some situations I am sure they are great, but they DO have wood in them, it takes energy to produce them, they do have glues, and what is Gen Next going to do w/ all the foam when the house falls apart? All houses do, even if the foam is good. Those points don't seem to get mentioned much here, and I am sure there are countless other (albeit small) negatives about SIPs. If someone mentions using double walls again, I will not hesitate to suggest looking at my "famous" (WTH did that come from?) wall as an alternative. If anyone has nothing better to do than follow me around and point out that I've posted somewhere else, too, BD. That guy may not have read the other post, and I am just throwing options out. NOW... for your question. As far as I know, cellulose and slag batts are not available up here, and one good supply outfit said the shipping would kill me. So, it looks like I'll have to suffer through fiberglass again; don't love the stuff, but once it is done it will be there for a long-butt time. PS: Spray in is something like $2 or $3/board foot, and then it needs to be coated (about the same price) to fire protect it. That, according to the guy who sprays it. Cheers.

JK,
What are "slag batts"?
When you mention spray in, states may be different but cellulose is approved as a fire block as well as fire resistant out of the bag, at least the GreenFiber Coccoon I use is.

Check out this link: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SolarHomes/LarsenTruss/History.htm
I've had the pleasure of talking to Robert Riversong (credited for the modified Larsen Truss) in another forum and he said the inspector allowed no fire blocking in the larsen truss because of the dense pack cellulose acting as insulation AND fireblocking.

I know Alaska is a different animal, however I can blow R50 cellulose for as low as $.80/sqft retail (easy attic over 4/12 pitch at a minimum) labor and materials and more commonly in the $1-1.50 sq ft range, assuming when you say spray-in you're refering to cellulose and you mean square foot not board foot? What r-value or depth/thicknes is the $2-3 get you? For those reading to learn, a square foot is 12" x 12", a board foot is any combination that gets you 144 CUBIC inches, generally as a base 12"x12"x1".
If it is board feet I will drive up to Alaska with cellulose in a semi and insulate everyone in your state and drive back and retire, because that would be $24 to $36 a cubic foot (roughly R40 settled) which means a 24x24 cabin attic would net me $13,824 - $20,736, I would even throw in baffles for free. Say the word and I'll purchase a semi or two.

Jklingel; To say the least ; your diagram is quite an interesting one. I see that you have chosen an 8" ICF below. This leads me to believe that they must be availible in your "neck of the woods". Question: Why did you not continue further with the ICF.
Sipper is right regarding the point of the greatly increased lumber usage - Not an efficient use of our precious natural resurces (lumber) - be it currently cheap and plentiful (in your area) or not!
Greentree; I don't wish to continue the "Wood is no good" battle here (even though I am most intrested in your reply to my questions posted there - PM them to me if you would).
I shall stick to my comments concerning Lumber for exterior load bearing walls and fully agree with ICF Construction!

Green: I made up the term "slag batts", I think, as the rock wool is made from furnace slag, or can be, if I recall. The spray-in to which I referred was urethane spray, not blown-in cellulose. Blown-in is way cheaper; no numbers off the top of my head, but it is competitive w/ 'glass. I used it over fiberglass batts in my lid and will surely use it again. My numbers are not firm, but a tad mushy from memory. A 2" to 3" thick spray was going to cost $2-$3/sqr foot, based on his board foot price, so I guess it is more like $1/bf. The fire retardant was also very spendy. If anyone is real curious, call Vertex in Frb. He'll kill me if 17 people call, so just in the off-chance that someone does, post his numbers to save him all the calls. Suffice it to say, they have been in business for many years, and it they were way out of line for what they do, then someone else would have moved in and run them out. Sorry about getting your heart rate all up about retirement, but you know the dance: Never believe anything you read on a forum! (kidding) So I guess you are destined to slog it out for a bit more. Things could be worse; you could be installing 'glass batts in southern Texas ceilings for a living......

Donner: If "horse power" were the only variable, I'd have a concrete house; period. ALL the way up. It ain't the only variable, regrettably. For reference, I just glanced through my OLD NHSB Insulation Manual and picked the highest heating degree day areas I could find. Grand Forks, ND, 9930. Butte, Mont, 9730. Int Falls, Minn, 10,600. Nome, AK, 14,170. Frb, AK, 14,290. We are the highest in this list, so btu loss is critical. Above grade, ICFs are not an option for me. Why not? They are expensive; they are not all that easy to install (unless you already have the bracing, experience, etc); and, most importantly, they just don't have the R-value. R22 is not much. As for the "wasted" wood, let's step back and check the reality of that. NOBODY builds w/ a 2x4 wall up here, unless you put up to 6" of R-tech on the outside (the Cold Climate Housing Research Center's "Remote wall"). That wall is REAL spendy. Standard wall here is 2x6 w/ 2" of R-tech outside; via my SS, $2.38/sf of wall, 9 cents/R. My wall is $2.06/sf, 5 cents/R. Now look at how much "wasted" wood we are talking about, comparing a 2x6 to 2-2x4s. What is the diff? A bunch of 2x2s. And how long would it take me to burn the 2x2s to heat my house (looking only at the diff between an R28, 2x6 wall and an R40, double 2x4 wall.) Not a real long time. So in the SHORT RUN, yes, there is "wasted" wood, but almost zero money (if that). Real soon I will actually be SAVING more trees...or oil..... for many, many years. That was at least part of my reasoning when I looked into ICFs above grade. I, too, am concerned about our forests, so why burn them all winter when I could take a few to save a bunch? Now for the SIPs. Again, the concept is wonderful. I need to research them more, though, as I still have no answer on some critical questions: (1) What will they cost me, INSTALLED? (2) Who is going to install them? I know of no one here using them, and surely an inexperienced crew is a very bad idea; they ain't dominoes, and "issues" will arise. (3) What DOES happen if a leak soaks them? How waterproof is the glue? How do you dry them? (4) Are they a real vapor barrier, or vapor retarder? Surely the foam and OSB does allow a tad of moisture to migrate through, so how do they work in REAL cold climates? And 40 yrs from now? (5) What about correcting for "Oops. I forgot about that light and need a wire in this ISP...", issues that happen to all of us. •••• I just need to read about them a lot more before I commit. I don't give one fat rat's how they have performed for 40 yrs in California or Ohio; I don't live there. If anyone has some links to solid research on these issues, not anecdotal info, pls post. I am not married to "my" wall (that I am sure a whole bunch of people have also used or thought of using), but it seems to satisfy my needs, w/ a known track record, better than anything else I have come across. Thanks for looking/asking/critiquing. john

Greentree: I forgot. People have raised the concern of settling when using blown cellulose in walls. I have considered it, because w/ my "open cavity" wall, if it settles a tad, who cares? There won't be any crack on top; the heap will just be a tad thinner. ( I have considered using it between the visqueen and the outer 2x4 wall, which would still be filled w/ glass.) Can a home builder blow in the dense stuff, or does that take special machinery? There used to be a company that made and blew in their own "hamster beds", but I have not heard of them for a long time. Will check. How much settling occurs in a 9' wall over 20, 30 yrs, and does that affect the R value appreciably? Thanks. john

John; Thank-you for your most thoughtful reply. It is quite clear, that you are doing your DD in order to obtain the "Biggest bang for your Buck". In order to assist you in your research; I recommend taking a peak over in the ICF sector; specifically the Thread "Superior Walls" - 2/20/09 by Tesla-was-right as well as my posts in the Thread "Interior Wall Surface Temperatures" on 2/1/09 and 2/9/09 respectfully. Hope that you will find these Threads both enjoyable and educational

With highest respect - Heinz

The manufacturer has published info for what you need to use to fill a certain area accounting for settling. The machines typically available through the yards are the smallest mahines which have certain limitations but can be used in dry closed or netted wall applications. Damp spray will typically require a pro outfit. I dont know what happens long term, from what Ive seen and read it has its initial settle and then your depth is set.

Green: Thanks. "Netted wall"? I assume you are talking about some kind of smelt netting (type) that helps hold the cellulose in place? Any specific links to that? I've always wondered if someone figgered out how to do that already; seems like a logical idea. Shoot, if the cellulose will stay put, I may just blow in hamster bedding and not have to wrestle w/ fiberglass all the time. j