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CMU; Thermal Mass & Thermal Bridge
Last Post 22 May 2009 04:09 PM by Bruce Frey. 39 Replies.
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Jelly
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1017
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| 14 May 2009 04:45 PM |
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thagreen, just curious - how would you achieve a three foot core with ICF? I know typical blocks are 4 or 6 inches thick. If an ICF block was 3 feet thick you would have to have some MAJOR bracing to keep all that concrete from blowing it out. A double ICF wall perhaps?
jelston, you may have heard of problems with stucco over foam, but that normally refers to wood framed or OSB sheathed structures with foam and stucco improperly installed. Moisture penetrates, causing the wood to rot. This isn't an issue with a concrete structure. |
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jelston
 New Member
 Posts:12
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| 14 May 2009 04:58 PM |
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fair enough but most of my guys (hispanohablantes all) are much more familiar with running stucco over a masonry surface rather than hanging it out in front of foam board. your point about icf's is well taken and frankly splitting icf blocks to achieve my desired wall thickness sounds like a lot of work in addition to the risks during pour. additionally, splitting the icf still does not give me the advantage of additional foam thickness and it appears to me that foam provides better insulation generally than concrete or what have you. I'm sold on the basic idea of icfs. I'm even more sold on icf's that permit direct application of stucco finish. I'm sold on the generally superior tightness of icf construction. but I am not sold on icf by itself as being sufficient for the degree of insulation that I would like to achieve. I don't go for all this heat the home with a candle nonsense (or cool it with an icecube for that matter), but I still think that more insulation could be easily added to the icf to increase the measurable r-value of the icfs that lend themselves to that sort of measurement (foam boards tied together) and even for the rastra, perform wall grid wall variety. For example, who said icfs have to be symmetrical, why can't one side be thicker, far thicker than the other? Think of the easy increase in r-value without any commensurate increase in labor, (increase in cost of course). |
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jelston
 New Member
 Posts:12
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| 14 May 2009 05:18 PM |
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duh. so i could do icf and just slap a bunch more foam to one side, and voila superinsulated. of course i still don't get to desired thickness easily but that's a different issue.
think first, then type, think first, think second, then type, etc.
jke
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Bruce Frey
 Basic Member
 Posts:429
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| 15 May 2009 03:12 AM |
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Posted By jelston on 05/14/2009 2:51 PM
but mostly the wife wants thick walls.
Well, I have heard of worse reasons for doing things! What do you have in mind for the roof? Ceiling heights? I certainly support the superinsulation concept and a large amount of thermal mass on the interior. I think if you superinsulate, any thermal mass on the exterior becomes moot. I think if I were going to do what you are thinking, I would use ICF or a normal removable form concrete wall or reinfirced CMU for the outer wall. This is a cost decsion...cheapest wins (you need to consider exterior finish waterproofing details in this). Inside that goes your 12" of styrofoam, so you are about half way there in terms of thickness. For the inside surface you could use CMU or even face brick if you like that look...so there is another 12" or so that needs to be economically filled. Let's think about how the Europeans built massive walls in the past. Brick or stone inside and out...but what is in the middle? Rubble! It is very common to see rubble filled walls. Scraps of brick, cmu, concrete and mortar. Lay it up with your masonry. You can get LEED points for recycled content! This way you have a bulletproof exterior structural wall, superinsulation, a LOT of thermal mass on the inside.....and a happy wife. I see no reason to tie the interior and exterior walls together with this concept. A low tech, all masonry concept fits with your low cost labor model. Bruce |
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Jelly
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1017
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| 15 May 2009 07:40 AM |
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Let's not forget the completely solid stone walls that the Europeans built. Hey, if money was no object... |
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toddm
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1152
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| 15 May 2009 08:04 AM |
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I have no idea how superinsulation and mass effect work together, so you shouldn't listen to me. But you should ask someone who knows. Mass is sensitive to insulation in hot humid climates. According to Oak Ridge, R-5 in Miami is still R-5 after being adjusted for mass, but R-17 gets you an effective R-34. Surely there is a point of diminishing returns. I'd want to know what that insulation level is.
Rice has a number of green building programs. Architecture professor Nonya Grenader and engineering professor Brent Houchens are two names that pop up. They may welcome the chance to study a real world case of lots of everything.
Keep us posted. You're building a unique house.
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arkie6
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1453
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| 15 May 2009 03:11 PM |
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Lite-Form ICFs have plastic ties that allow you to make up to a 24" thick concrete wall. Combine this with the Lite-Form Xtra 2.5" thick EPS foam planks on either side and you have 29" thick walls. If you want more thickness and insulation, you could install 1" or thicker XPS foam board (i.e. Dow blue board) over the outside, then screw stucco lath on the outside of this into the ICF ties. |
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Hoowood
 New Member
 Posts:78
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| 16 May 2009 02:07 PM |
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Posted By toddm on 05/15/2009 8:04 AM Architecture professor Nonya Grenader and engineering professor Brent Houchens are two names that pop up.
They may welcome the chance to study a real world case of lots of everything.
Gentlemen My experience was and still is: Professors study and Builders build
I have spoken all my words Hoowood |
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The Sipper
 Basic Member
 Posts:264
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| 16 May 2009 09:15 PM |
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So, Jelston, since you're looking at many different options, you might want to at least check out the TF ("vertical" icf) website. They do offer a 24" wide steel "stud" or "tie" and with their optional foam panels of up to 4" you could get about a 28" thick wall, actually you can get the foam panels up to 12" thick but they might have to be "grooved" for the ties onsite. I know that this approach wouldn't give you the thermal mass benefits of having CMU's on the inside and outside, however, is Houston really an area where having thermal mass is an advantage? I lived there for about about 15 years, and basically remember the heat and humidity. Maybe to keep cooler in the summer with the concrete to the interior, and thick foam on the outside? I think that there are ICF companies that are producing a "one sided" ICF system, I heard that TF is working on one. How about a 24" thick, engineered, poured concrete wall exposed to the interior, and 4" to 12" of foam to the exterior?
In any event, your post is certainly stimulating some interest (and, I might add, stirring up some creative juices) So, good luck with your research, and, with your project. |
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| The Sipper |
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Bruce Frey
 Basic Member
 Posts:429
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| 17 May 2009 03:10 AM |
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Posted By Jelly on 05/15/2009 7:40 AM Let's not forget the completely solid stone walls that the Europeans built. Hey, if money was no object... ..a lot of what appears to be solid stone really isn't. As long as there has been mortar, a lot of interior structure has been rubble.....broken bits of stone, bricks, etc. held together with mortar. Think of it as coarse aggregate and the mortar as the cement paste. Money was always an issue. They recycled! Bruce |
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Jelly
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1017
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| 17 May 2009 07:59 PM |
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true, they're not *all* solid, but there are many that are. Quite a few examples still stand in the medieval town where I used to live. The stones were carved to fit together, and were lifted in place with the aid of dimples in the sides. Of course jelston doesn't have to go that far, but he could if he was hardcore enough :) |
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John Devine
 New Member
 Posts:1
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| 18 May 2009 10:02 AM |
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Jelston,
Take a look at the DAC-Art Building System product. It might be something you can incorporate into your composite wall design:
http://www.scrapbookscrapbook.com/DAC-ART/index.html
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Jetgraphics
 New Member
 Posts:19
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| 19 May 2009 11:59 PM |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_heat_capacity Specific heat capacity, also known simply as specific heat, is the measure of the heat energy required to increase the temperature of a unit quantity of a substance by a certain temperature interval.
In an insulated volume, the specific heat of the air and materials determines how much heat energy is needed to change the temperature. Adding thermal mass affects the rate at which the temperature changes. However, that lag is only useful when the climate has large swings between day and night. In a hot / humid climate, adding thermal mass doesn't save energy.
The big question: why did the American building gurus decide on R13 and R19 as the "suggested" wall insulation? Was it a coincidence that it matched fiberglass batts within a 3.5" and 5.5" wall cavity?
And instead of blowing $$$ on "super" windows that barely can reach R4, why not specify insulated shutters and use inexpensive windows?
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thagreen
 Basic Member
 Posts:283
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| 20 May 2009 10:15 AM |
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Jelly, Look at the link posted this should clarify lots of your questions. Any core could be achieved. Regarding bracing nothig over the top is needed, since only a crawl(meaning low walls). http://www.integraspec.com/applications.htm The footings and clip applications would work great for what your trying to achieve. Good Luck, and keep us posted! Cheers! |
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Jelly
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1017
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| 21 May 2009 02:58 PM |
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jelston, I should have mentioned it before, but since you're in Houston you might take a look at:
http://www.crescoconcrete.com/
Cresco concrete are HQ'd in Houston and they make an aerated concrete block, something like autoclaved aerated concrete, with a few key differences. They claim that due to the trapped air in the aerated concrete that you won't need any additional insulation. While that is debatable, it's worth taking a look at them. Lighter than CMU and formed so that they interlock. |
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Dana1
 Senior Member
 Posts:6991
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| 22 May 2009 09:10 AM |
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Posted By Jetgraphics on 05/19/2009 11:59 PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_heat_capacity Specific heat capacity, also known simply as specific heat, is the measure of the heat energy required to increase the temperature of a unit quantity of a substance by a certain temperature interval.
In an insulated volume, the specific heat of the air and materials determines how much heat energy is needed to change the temperature. Adding thermal mass affects the rate at which the temperature changes. However, that lag is only useful when the climate has large swings between day and night. In a hot / humid climate, adding thermal mass doesn't save energy.
The big question: why did the American building gurus decide on R13 and R19 as the "suggested" wall insulation? Was it a coincidence that it matched fiberglass batts within a 3.5" and 5.5" wall cavity?
And instead of blowing $$$ on "super" windows that barely can reach R4, why not specify insulated shutters and use inexpensive windows?
There's a history there, and it's entirely related the cost of energy vs. the installed cost of insulation, the cost of money and where the crossover where building for higher R values goes present-value-negative in an intermediate-term financial analysis that assumes constant or low-inflation energy pricing. The original 3.5" batt insulation was R11 (and they're still available), not R13, but R15 high-density batts are now available for standard 2x4 construction. I haven't seen recently, but R7 or R8 "econobatts" used to be pretty common too (and work a lot better than empty wall-cavity balloon frame construction that was common in the cheap-energy 1940s.) Similarly, R22 high density fiberglass batts are available for 5.5" cavities (and blown high density fiberglass hits R23 in that depth.) DOE R-value recommendations have been bumped a few times over the past few decades, but they don't change with the same volatility as actual energy pricing. (What would have been cost-effective in a 10 year NPV analysis at last summer's $4.50-5.00/gallon heating oil might seem pretty ridiculous at this summer's $2/gallon heating oil.) Changes to building codes tend to be slow, and generally have to have a clear economic or safety argument to make it into law. Forcing people to build to standards that are un-economic is rightly seen as an unfair burden, so there's a healthy margin built in- the true economics vary, and code minimums are truly the no-brainer minimums. Anybody who cares to do the math can figure out what makes sense for THEM. But even after last year's energy spikes the general housing marketplace is more willing to spend money on more space, or more luxury features than energy efficiency features. It's easier to sell the cush-factor of radiant floor heating than the high-efficiency systems that can take full advantage of the low temperature operation for double-digit percentage efficiency gains. If it's not NPV+ in 3 years (a ridiculous standard, but measureable in the marketplace), the general public just isn't investing there. Green is hard to sell (commercial or residential), even when demonstrably cost-effective, which is why minimum standards have to be incorporated into building codes to make any headway in the big picture, or when making broad policy shift based on values surrounding global warming or national security considerations, beyond the simple economics. California Title 24 is a good start, as are many local code upgrades like that in Austin TX. But those too are broadly economic, but calculated with a sharper pencil & longer time horizions. It's a lot easier & cheaper to address it in new construction- retrofit is where the big bucks are going to be spent. Something like 80% of the buildings that will be standing in 2050 are already built. Prescriptive practices & methodologies (whether building codes, LEEDS, or EnergyStar) will have to eventually move ever more toward measured building efficiency if broader goals are to be met. OK enough thread-drift- back to the thermal-mass discussion... In most of the lower 48 thermal mass inside a well insulated envelope will save energy and improve comfort, but the amount it saves will vary widely by climate zone & season. In hot humid climates with high latent AC loads it won't buy you too much, but still some- mass affects only the sensible AC loads. By lengthening the cycles and reducing the numbers of cycles, the efficiency of heating/cooling systems goes up and with high thermal mass setting up the controls for efficiently-long minimum cycle lengths won't result in overheating/overcooling. With 2-3 heating/cooling cycles per DAY (instead of per hour), the startup wear & tear on the equipment from is much lower too. And when the daily average temperatures are moderate (even if the daily temperature swing is not) the building can "coast", with minimal or no AC/heating inputs. In some situations the annual percentage energy savings will be into double-digits, but in others it'll be hard to measure low single-digits or "in the noise".
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 22 May 2009 11:49 AM |
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For best thermal storage, use Glauber's salt or similar. Water would be next best.
More practical - concrete with lots of aggregate in it.
Mass has its uses, but be careful with it for cooling. Humid air and cool surfaces create areas that encourage mold.
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tigerfan6
 New Member
 Posts:47
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| 22 May 2009 01:02 PM |
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Posted By Dana1 on 05/22/2009 9:10 AM
Posted By Jetgraphics on 05/19/2009 11:59 PM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_heat_capacity Specific heat capacity, also known simply as specific heat, is the measure of the heat energy required to increase the temperature of a unit quantity of a substance by a certain temperature interval.
In an insulated volume, the specific heat of the air and materials determines how much heat energy is needed to change the temperature. Adding thermal mass affects the rate at which the temperature changes. However, that lag is only useful when the climate has large swings between day and night. In a hot / humid climate, adding thermal mass doesn't save energy.
[b]The big question: why did the American building gurus decide on R13 and R19 as the "suggested" wall insulation? Was it a coincidence that it matched fiberglass batts within a 3.5" and 5.5" wall cavity?[/b]
And instead of blowing $$$ on "super" windows that barely can reach R4, why not specify insulated shutters and use inexpensive windows?
[/quote] There's a history there, and it's entirely related the cost of energy vs. the installed cost of insulation, the cost of money and where the crossover where building for higher R values goes present-value-negative in an intermediate-term financial analysis that assumes constant or low-inflation energy pricing. The original 3.5" batt insulation was R11 (and they're still available), not R13, but R15 high-density batts are now available for standard 2x4 construction. I haven't seen recently, but R7 or R8 "econobatts" used to be pretty common too (and work a lot better than empty wall-cavity balloon frame construction that was common in the cheap-energy 1940s.) Similarly, R22 high density fiberglass batts are available for 5.5" cavities (and blown high density fiberglass hits R23 in that depth.)
DOE R-value recommendations have been bumped a few times over the past few decades, but they don't change with the same volatility as actual energy pricing. (What would have been cost-effective in a 10 year NPV analysis at last summer's $4.50-5.00/gallon heating oil might seem pretty ridiculous at this summer's $2/gallon heating oil.) Changes to building codes tend to be slow, and generally have to have a clear economic or safety argument to make it into law. Forcing people to build to standards that are un-economic is rightly seen as an unfair burden, so there's a healthy margin built in- the true economics vary, and code minimums are truly the no-brainer minimums. Anybody who cares to do the math can figure out what makes sense for THEM. But even after last year's energy spikes the general housing marketplace is more willing to spend money on more space, or more luxury features than energy efficiency features. It's easier to sell the cush-factor of radiant floor heating than the high-efficiency systems that can take full advantage of the low temperature operation for double-digit percentage efficiency gains. If it's not NPV+ in 3 years (a ridiculous standard, but measureable in the marketplace), the general public just isn't investing there.
Green is hard to sell (commercial or residential), even when demonstrably cost-effective, which is why minimum standards have to be incorporated into building codes to make any headway in the big picture, or when making broad policy shift based on values surrounding global warming or national security considerations, beyond the simple economics. California Title 24 is a good start, as are many local code upgrades like that in Austin TX. But those too are broadly economic, but calculated with a sharper pencil & longer time horizions. It's a lot easier & cheaper to address it in new construction- retrofit is where the big bucks are going to be spent. Something like 80% of the buildings that will be standing in 2050 are already built. Prescriptive practices & methodologies (whether building codes, LEEDS, or EnergyStar) will have to eventually move ever more toward measured building efficiency if broader goals are to be met.
OK enough thread-drift- back to the thermal-mass discussion...
In most of the lower 48 thermal mass inside a well insulated envelope will save energy and improve comfort, but the amount it saves will vary widely by climate zone & season. In hot humid climates with high latent AC loads it won't buy you too much, but still some- mass affects only the sensible AC loads. By lengthening the cycles and reducing the numbers of cycles, the efficiency of heating/cooling systems goes up and with high thermal mass setting up the controls for efficiently-long minimum cycle lengths won't result in overheating/overcooling. With 2-3 heating/cooling cycles per DAY (instead of per hour), the startup wear & tear on the equipment from is much lower too. And when the daily average temperatures are moderate (even if the daily temperature swing is not) the building can "coast", with minimal or no AC/heating inputs. In some situations the annual percentage energy savings will be into double-digits, but in others it'll be hard to measure low single-digits or "in the noise".
Excellent points, all, but hot, humid climates could probably most benefit from VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) technology on Air Conditioners, rather than more insulation. The trouble is, the residential HVAC industry is simply not embracing variable speed, at least not on the compressor drive side. Sure, it adds cost and complexity, but the entire short cycle/long cycle issue would be completely negated by a VFD driven compressor. The cost for say, a three ton, would be maybe $1000 now for an industrial model, a residential model could be trimmed down to say $500. Oh, by the way, the would use three phase motors, which would lower cost and increase longevity. Yes, the VFD can take single phase in and make three phase out. Of course, our ridiculous SEER testing standards negate the advantage of the VFD, so the VFD advantages don't show up as a higher SEER. The Asians are way, way ahead of us on HVAC. You can get a VFD condensing unit from Nordyne. I don't know how much it costs, but I am sure it's a lot. Meanwhile, you could have put VFD's on the old SEER 8's and 10's and probably gotten the same realworld results for half the money. Many of the Asian minisplits are VFD. By the way, VFD's are the same as the ECM motor. ECM is better, VFD is best. So, in my opinion, if anyone cares as I have yet to build my first house, is that in hot, humid climates air tight with a VFD A/C would beat high r-value with a conventional A/C, in terms of an incremental cost addition. I am by no means an expert. I make my living with industrial VFD's. By the way, this is my first post, and I have immensely enjoyed and appreciate all the inputs from everyone on these boards. |
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Dana1
 Senior Member
 Posts:6991
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| 22 May 2009 02:47 PM |
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Yep, there are certainly limitations to R value and mass, which do NOTHING for latent loads. Heating-dominated climates see much bigger average & peak delta-Ts than sticky gulf-coast state peak & average cooling delta-Ts. The bigger the delta between conditioned & outside temps, the more insulation buys you. More mass lets you average out the daily load. Hot-humid climates in the US tend to have the lowest returns for adding lots of mass, and only modest returns on high R-values. Highest efficiency dehumidification is key to handling the high peak and average LATENT loads.
Variable rate drive is the cooling-equivalent of burner modulation for fossil-fired heating- you can get HUGE operational-efficiency gains at part load conditions by matching the actual pumping rate to the load and not cycling it. Like AFUE, SEER doesn't tell even half the story about how the equipment performs under real-world conditions.
This is why I'd prefer performance testing on buildings rather than mere prescriptive " the cooling system shall not be oversized by more than 15% per ACCA Manual-J, with a minimum SEER of..." type language. The true performance is determined by the building & system designers, not the equipment efficiency tests. Bad designs can have the equipment rating specs and still perform abysmally, good designers can make even modestly-efficient equipment perform adequately. The state of the art is getting better, but it's hard to tell if the middle-of-the-road has shifted by much. (I'll bet I've met a duct designer or two who could bring even the BEST variable speed system to it's knees! :-) ) |
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Bruce Frey
 Basic Member
 Posts:429
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| 22 May 2009 04:09 PM |
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Posted By Dana1 on 05/22/2009 2:47 PM ............. Hot-humid climates in the US tend to have the lowest returns for adding lots of mass, and only modest returns on high R-values. Highest efficiency dehumidification is key to handling the high peak and average LATENT loads.
Variable rate drive is the cooling-equivalent of burner modulation for fossil-fired heating- ..........
............. The state of the art is getting better, but it's hard to tell if the middle-of-the-road has shifted by much. (I'll bet I've met a duct designer or two who could bring even the BEST variable speed system to it's knees! :-) ) I think we will see frequency drives on the residential offerings from Daikin, Mitsubishi and others within a few years. It is already on their commercial splits. That should permit economical, continuous low load operation for dehumidification. I will go to a Daikin commercial presentation in a few weeks and I am anxious to see what they are coming out with. Reducing load by building tight and highly insulated is still my primary goal. Bruce |
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