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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 03 Jan 2012 02:11 PM |
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jonr,
Right on all accounts. It really is worse than trading for a new automobile since there is so much money involved. At least with automobiles, we have some help from the internet with the prices. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 03 Jan 2012 02:14 PM |
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Dana1,
Yes, some ICF contractors make ICF roofs such as Lite-Deck, Insul-deck, Quad-Deck, etc. Also WRCS and Met-Rock Envirolast do roofs. Dana1, I suspect that you already know this but you may be asking if the local ICF contractors do roofs. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 Jan 2012 02:40 PM |
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Posted By jonr on 03 Jan 2012 10:14 AM
With a custom home, you have the perpetual problem of a one-time amateur (the owner) dealing with professionals who do it every day. The pros come out ahead. Plus now we have the problem of the market price being 30% less than the cost to build.
How will you structure the contract(s) with the GC or subs?
With a custom home one still needs to hire a GC. The owner does not have to deal with the professionals because the GC will handle them. That is what the GC gets paid for. |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 03 Jan 2012 02:42 PM |
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Alton- I've actually yet to see an ICF roof installed in my area, and was only vaguely aware that such systems existed in the "real world" of single-family residential construciton (thanks!). If they're having problems finding local contractors up for doing wall systems out of ICF, it seems even less likely that they'll find someone up to speed on ICF roofing systems.
fordracing19: If you're talking about a vented roof system with 1" of cc foam as the air seal at the attic floor and heaping up R50 cellulose, while moving the mechanicals & ductwork completely inside the insulation & air-pressure boundary yes, that can perform pretty well even with complicated roof lines. But the pictures seem to show a dormered-out 1-1/2 story, which means you'd have a kneewall sealing & insulating problem as well. Keeping the roof & wall lines relatively simple reduces the chances that it'll leak (air or water.)
It doesn't need to be a single-gabled right-rectangular prism or a cube, but the recent trend toward multiple gables of differing bump outs & setbacks, with mirroring roof lines and valleys may look great in drawings, but they are a headache to build and build-well, and tend to detract from performance and long term reliability. Too many intersecting planes increases the chances of something leaking, and adds considerably to the framing complexity. (On the front view I see no fewer than NINE different valleys (and that's counting the shed-dormer at zero.) |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 Jan 2012 02:45 PM |
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Posted By jonr on 03 Jan 2012 10:14 AM
With a custom home, you have the perpetual problem of a one-time amateur (the owner) dealing with professionals who do it every day. The pros come out ahead. Plus now we have the problem of the market price being 30% less than the cost to build.
How will you structure the contract(s) with the GC or subs?
With a custom home one still needs to hire a GC. The owner does not have to deal with the professionals because the GC will handle them. That is what the GC gets paid for. Here in AZ one can buy a 3,800 sq.ft. home, completely finished with high end finishes, less than 4 years old, for $65 sq.ft. ($247k) - This includes the lot cost and garage costs (3 car). One CANNOT build such a home for $65 sq.ft., even if they did all the labor themselves. Replacement costs for such a home is $110 sq.ft. ($418K). Here is where the big disconnect occurs. That is why it is cheaper to buy a built home vs. building a new home. That is why nobody is really building new custom homes. The custom home builders have to become competitive or find a different source for their business (commercial, tract homes). There is A LOT of "fat" when it comes to home bids. Years ago I took a set of plans to a three different GC's. This was for a wood frame home, the bids ranged from $90 sq.ft. - $125 sq.ft. - $175 sq.ft.  Remember, theses bids included the same exact finishes. The GC is making a profit at $90 sq.ft., so then the $175 sq.ft. GC is making double profit. You are taking about $255,000 difference in building price. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 03 Jan 2012 02:49 PM |
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Posted By fordracing19 on 02 Jan 2012 11:09 PM
With such a home you are looking at making the roofing/truss company VERY happy. This is not an easy roof to assemble. Are you not in tornado country? I don't think this roof design is conducive to an area with hail and high winds. It's a nice home but was this home chosen from an on-line home design catalog? It wasn't a custom designed home by an architect JUST FOR YOU, correct? |
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fordracing19
New Member
Posts:19
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| 04 Jan 2012 02:49 AM |
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Posted By Lbear on 03 Jan 2012 02:49 PM
Posted By fordracing19 on 02 Jan 2012 11:09 PM
With such a home you are looking at making the roofing/truss company VERY happy. This is not an easy roof to assemble. Are you not in tornado country? I don't think this roof design is conducive to an area with hail and high winds.
It's a nice home but was this home chosen from an on-line home design catalog? It wasn't a custom designed home by an architect JUST FOR YOU, correct?
Correct. It is an online plan with many changes. The roof pitch will be knocked down some since not doing the 2nd story. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 04 Jan 2012 05:30 AM |
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Not doing the second story will certainly bring the roof more into human scale. Please post the revised image when you have the roof lowered. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 04 Jan 2012 09:05 AM |
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That is why nobody is really building new custom homes. Where I live, custom homes represent a much greater proportion of what is being built than ever before. By definition, "custom" means to the owners liking and whether you are talking about features or quality of construction, it's nearly impossible to find that on the market right now, no matter how glutted it is. There are a large number of empty homes that changed hands in the $700K-$800K range, (sometimes more than once) that are now languishing at $400K. They might have granite in them but they are neither custom nor quality. |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 04 Jan 2012 10:36 AM |
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Not that it is my business, but I think it will look better with a smaller and simpler roof.
If you really want something specific and price/resale isn't much of an issue, then custom makes sense. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 04 Jan 2012 03:34 PM |
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Modifying existing architectural plans sometimes cost just as much as starting from scratch. If you don't want to pay for an architect to design your home which usually costs around 10%-15% of the homes value. Hire a CAD draftsman which usually costs $2 per sq.ft but realize that a draftsman is not a trained architect but if you want a simple home, they can do the job. Remember, many of these plans on-line are just usually leftover plans from some type of cookie cutter subdivision tract home design. They license them to sell the rights to the plans. I've seen A LOT of poorly laid out home plans. Many of these homes emphasize "curb appeal", meaning they want to grab your attention from the outside but lack functionality and energy conservation. A huge roof like that does nothing but add to roofing costs and long-term maintenance. I guarantee you that the majority of costs in that home will go toward the truss company and the roofers. It all depends on what YOU want. Cost, simplicity, efficiency, looks, all will play a part but NEVER go on looks alone because it will cost $$$ you in the end. A roof like that might actually fair OK in a hurricane zone because of its steep pitch it will cause stalling/turbulence and subsequent down force, which is better than lift. Here is the scientific article on it: Roof Pitch
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fordracing19
New Member
Posts:19
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| 04 Jan 2012 11:52 PM |
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A different builder is working on the plans now. I hope to have a bid in a few days. The big roof will be gone. I'm hoping he can get the hvac in the living space. Is it pointless to have the unit inside and the supply in the attic? |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 05 Jan 2012 02:18 PM |
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Posted By fordracing19 on 04 Jan 2012 11:52 PM
A different builder is working on the plans now. I hope to have a bid in a few days. The big roof will be gone. I'm hoping he can get the hvac in the living space. Is it pointless to have the unit inside and the supply in the attic?
For an energy efficient home the HVAC duct work MUST be within the "thermal envelope" of the home. If the ducts and air handler sit in the attic above the insulation, they basically are sitting outside, as they are exposed to the outside air temps. Think about the ducts sitting up there in 100F+ heat and 10F cold. Plus ALL ducts will leak, some more than others. So instead of leaking into the insulated part of the home, which is good, they leak into the uninsulated part which is like opening a window and letting the heat and cold out. They estimate that having the HVAC duct work and air handler OUTSIDE of the thermal envelope of the home will cost you around 20%-30% more in annual energy costs vs. placing them inside the thermal envelope. If you don't have the space in the attic have them design an interior room/closet that can house these items. Run the duct work within interior walls. Builders love placing the equipment in the attic because it saves them interior space and it is easy for them to run the lines. Out of sight, out of mind, but you will see the results of this poor engineering in your pocket book. |
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Alton
Veteran Member
Posts:2157
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| 05 Jan 2012 03:40 PM |
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Lbear,
I agree. Well stated in understandable terms. |
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Residential Designer &
Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period .
334 826-3979 |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 05 Jan 2012 10:20 PM |
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lbear....how do you run ducts in the inside walls? I live in a ranch with the ducts in the attic, air hand in closet. How would I run ducts in the walls?
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 06 Jan 2012 02:08 AM |
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Posted By robinnc on 05 Jan 2012 10:20 PM
lbear....how do you run ducts in the inside walls? I live in a ranch with the ducts in the attic, air hand in closet. How would I run ducts in the walls?
Here is some info:
DuctsInside.orgGo to benefits & case studies where they retrofired duct work to within the thermal envelope of the home and observed 20%-30% reduction in annual heating/cooling costs. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 06 Jan 2012 09:23 AM |
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I'm building a home in which everything is inside the thermal shell of the building. That necessitates constructing chases and "soffits" around the ducting.
A number of contractors have stopped by to look and it is interesting that at least two have assumed we will be pushing those areas "outside" the shell by moving insulation from the outside to the inside of the new walls. That's how pervasive the idea and tradition of having the ducting "outside" is. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 06 Jan 2012 04:08 PM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 06 Jan 2012 09:23 AM
I'm building a home in which everything is inside the thermal shell of the building. That necessitates constructing chases and "soffits" around the ducting.
A number of contractors have stopped by to look and it is interesting that at least two have assumed we will be pushing those areas "outside" the shell by moving insulation from the outside to the inside of the new walls. That's how pervasive the idea and tradition of having the ducting "outside" is.
Yep, I talked to a contractor and told him about putting the duct work INSIDE the home and not in the attic. He turned to me and said, "Why would you want to do that?"  I believe most contractors out there are at least 5-10 years "behind the times" when it comes to this stuff. Unless it is forced upon them OR it saves them $$$$, they usually don't care about it. |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 06 Jan 2012 06:17 PM |
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Maybe use open web trusses for the floor joists and put ducts there. |
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robinnc
Advanced Member
Posts:586
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| 06 Jan 2012 10:16 PM |
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Thanks Lbear, I'll go back and read that!
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