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Serious Windows - Feedback?
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 10 Mar 2012 04:43 PM |
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Posted By EnerLux on 10 Mar 2012 04:29 PM
I am not on the board promoting any single window. I am heavily involved in the window industry and have designed composite and fiberglass casement/awning/picture window systems that are currently on the market or will soon be on the market. I have experience on the extrusion side, manufacturing, installation, and sales. We can talk rainscreen principles, hardware design, DP ratings, solar tuning, installation methods, etc... all day, I just get annoyed when people paint this false image that ALL American products are 20 years behind Europe.
As I figured, you are involved in the U.S. window companies. I just wanted to get "full disclosure". No personal attack against you, I just knew that you had a dog in this fight, financially. I don't have a dog in this fight either way, I don't gain to profit and I don't work for any window manufacturer. I just know talking with engineers and window companies on what works and what doesn't. Now, if you can show me an American engineered window that has the same great engineering that European windows have, I will listen and spend my money with U.S. companies. But I will not an inferior product just because it has a "Made in USA" stamp on it. I did that years ago with American cars and learned my lesson. Never again. You mentioned that these new window designs will soon be on the market. What is the company name and what kind of design are we talking about? |
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EnerLux
New Member
Posts:20
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| 10 Mar 2012 08:42 PM |
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I have an NDA with another company for the fiberglass window. The composite window will be manufactured by my company starting in July. The extrusion tooling is currently being cut.
My company previously manufactured a fiberglass casement window that had air infiltration rates of 0.005 cfm, DP-100 rating, and could achieve full-frame U values of 0.16 with a 1 3/8" argon filled triple pane using the Cardinal XL edge spacer. The overall frame height of the entire window was 2 7/8", far lower than the bulky European tilt & turn and casement systems. There is a lot more that goes into a window system than just U value and DP. You have aesthetic, marketing, pricing, performance, STC, education etc... considerations.
Besides that anyone in America could manufacture the Deceuninck, Veka or Rehau tilt and turn systems, but they don't because there is no market demand for it. American's like thin site lines.
Show me a window from Europe that you will import, that will outperform, be more durable, have thin site lines, and will be similarly priced to the above fiberglass window. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 11 Mar 2012 12:44 AM |
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Posted By EnerLux on 10 Mar 2012 08:42 PM
I have an NDA with another company for the fiberglass window. The composite window will be manufactured by my company starting in July. The extrusion tooling is currently being cut.
My company previously manufactured a fiberglass casement window that had air infiltration rates of 0.005 cfm, DP-110 ratings, and could achieve full-frame U values of 0.16 with a 1 3/8" argon filled triple pane using the Cardinal XL edge spacer. The overall frame height of the entire window was 2 7/8", far lower than the bulky European tilt & turn and casement systems. There is a lot more that goes into a window system than just U value and DP. You have aesthetic, marketing, pricing, performance, STC, education etc... considerations.
Besides that anyone in America could manufacture the Deceuninck, Veka or Rehau tilt and turn systems, but they don't because there is no market demand for it. American's like thin site lines.
Show me a window from Europe that you will import, that will outperform, be more durable, have thin site lines, and will be similarly priced to the above fiberglass window.
I would be interested to know more and see it when it goes into production. Please post a website link or contact information when it does. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 12 Mar 2012 01:24 AM |
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The Pella triple pane window is not a sealed window. The interior glass panel is removable. Maybe the one you are thinking about is built that way, LBear, but my Pella windows are true triple pane. I just put them in a couple weeks ago, but your repeated assertions caused me to look at them extra closely to see if I got the wrong thing. Nope they are just as ordered. Triple pane. I wanted to put the finest windows in this home and it came down to Marvin and Pella, all things considered. The Marvin package ran 20% more - for no good reason, since both windows appeared to be identical in function and quality, therefore Pella won. |
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 12 Mar 2012 08:39 AM |
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ICF,
If you are talking about the designer series Pella's they are not at "true" sealed triple pane window. The interior pane opens so you can place blinds and grill within it. It does have as seal and does provide some thermal value but not the same as a true triple where all glass units are sealed. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 12 Mar 2012 09:01 AM |
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What are you basing these assertions on? |
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 12 Mar 2012 09:14 AM |
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ICF,
I just visited the Pella store and priced the designer series windows out. I have read about the Marvin Tri pane windows and am in the process of also pricing them out.(True sealed triple pane window) I would assume that your Pella's are the designer series because they are triple pane. FYI, I do like them and they appear to be much more affordable then any of the foreign window manufacturers. They also have that traditional window look that I am after. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 12 Mar 2012 09:25 AM |
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They also have that traditional window look that I am after. What look is that? Are you referring to the "wood" construction? |
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Lee Dodge
Advanced Member
Posts:714
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| 12 Mar 2012 11:56 AM |
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The term "'true' triple pane window" is a misleading and nondesciptive term invented by somebody on this forum for its snob appeal. Let us bury that term, never to be used again, and discuss the window in question, the Pella Designer series, in more precise terms, specifically its insulated glazing unit (IGU) and the total number of panes of glass. For my circa 2010 Pella Designer series windows installed almost exactly two years ago, the IGU consists of two panes of glass, and a third, independently sealed pane of glass toward the interior of the house. The spacing between the second and third panes of glass (counting from outside to inside) is about 28 mm (1.12"), and the part of the window holding that third pane can be tilted in toward the house interior allowing for blinds or shades to be inserted between thosse two panes.
Therefore, the question for you, ICFHybrid, is whether your 2012 version of these Pella Designer series windows are similar to mine as described above, or whether the design has changed in such a way that they now use an IGU that has three glazings in a single, sealed unit. And while you are at it, what is the window style (double-hung, casement, etc.), gas fill (air or argon), the U-value, SHGC, and ER value? My circa 2010 Pella Designer are high altitude (so air filled) and the high SHGC windows are U-value = 0.31, SHGC = 0.49, VT = 0.52%, and ER ~ 28 (estimated), while the low SHGC are U = 0.29, SHGC - 0.28, VT = 0.48%, and ER ~ 17 (estimated). The ER really takes a hit for the low solar gain windows!
On a different note, I really like the Canadian's Energy Rating (ER) factor for those that live in a heating dominated climate. Quoting from the Canadian Natural Resources website http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/equipment/windows-doors/8464 "The Energy Rating (ER) value is calculated using a formula that balances a product's U-value with its potential solar heat gain coefficient (SHGC) and its airtightness. The higher the number, the more energy efficient the product. The ER scale was recently modified so that all products now have a rating of between 0 and about 50. (Under the previous rating scale, it was possible for a product to have a negative ER number.) The higher the ER number, the better the product's thermal performance."
Since this ER factor combines both U-value and SHGC, it could be used by those people confused about how to balance these two terms to arrive at the most efficient window in cold climates. Of course, it would be far better to use a model like RESFEN or BEopt to perform calculations for a particular location and climate including solar insolation, but this effort is beyond what some people are willing or capable of doing. |
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Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 12 Mar 2012 12:51 PM |
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ICF,
I was referring to the frame on the outside and the wood trim on the inside. Some of the fiberglass windows look suitable for more contemporary houses. My house is going to be of an arts and crafts design. |
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peteinny
New Member
Posts:85
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| 12 Mar 2012 12:53 PM |
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Lee,
Are you happy with the quality of your Pella windows? I have heard from several people that they were not totally happy with the window quality. I don't know if they are referring to problems with older models from years past. |
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Lee Dodge
Advanced Member
Posts:714
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| 12 Mar 2012 01:56 PM |
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Posted By peteinny on 12 Mar 2012 12:53 PM
Lee, Are you happy with the quality of your Pella windows? I have heard from several people that they were not totally happy with the window quality. I don't know if they are referring to problems with older models from years past. peteinny- I also have an arts and crafts house, as you can tell if you checked out the website. The windows in the other houses in this subdivision of arts and crafts homes are all white vinyl, and I like the looks of my Pella wood windows better than what I see in the other homes. A downside of the wood windows is that I paid extra for the Pella Designer windows, and then I paid more to get them stained during the construction process, although they got them to match the oak hardwood floors pretty well. You can sort of see what they look like at http://www.residentialenergylaborat...on_am.html in the Windows and Shades section. I purchased them not so much based on the arts and crafts design, but rather because I was looking for high solar gain windows that would also meet the U-value requirement of 0.35 at the time. I would list the selection criteria that I used as follows: 1. High SHGC for all but north side. 2. Builder was not comfortable with fiberglass windows due to lack of experience by installers with fiberglass in this small mountain town. 3. I was guessing that wood would have less problems with thermal expansion than vinyl, but with wood cladding...? 4. I was able to get a quotation from Pella, while I was not able to get much of a response from some other window companies concerning their high SHGC products when I told them they also needed to meet the U<0.35 spec. 5. Quote from Serious Windows for their high SHGC windows (and low SHGC) was much higher than the Pella windows, and the RESFEN predicted performance for this sunny climate was worse. The specs for both these brands have changed since 2010. 6. Delivery from some other suppliers was too slow for the construction schedule. 7. I liked the looks of wood better than vinyl or fiberglass, especially for the arts and crafts house. The Pella Designer windows have performed well from a thermal standpoint, being a part of the overall package that includes a good insulation package and some passive solar heating, with the actual house energy performance coming out close to the predicted performance. This includes about 35% of the total space heating from passive solar. I do not have a way to measure the window performance separately from the whole house. On one of the windows, the tilt out feature for the inner single pane did not work correctly due to a hinge problem, and the service from the local Pella rep was slow, but he finally fixed it. (I didn't need that feature since I don't use blinds there, but I wanted it to work correctly since they were new.) The windows were delivered with the wrong color hardware (white instead of brown) and the local Pella rep was very slow in getting the hardware replaced. The top and bottom halves of the double-hung windows can be tilted into the house for cleaning, but for a one-story house, I find it easier to clean them from the outside than to try to tilt them inward, which is a bit awkward. Otherwise, the performance of the windows has been fine. I do need operable windows for my cooling strategy that includes only "natural" air conditioning, and these windows open and close well. Some caution has to be used in locking the windows to make sure that the two window halves do not push apart along the seal for these double-hung windows. Wood windows will require more maintenace than vinyl or fiberglass to maintain their finish, a disadvantage. |
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Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 12 Mar 2012 10:04 PM |
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I paid extra for the Pella Designer windows, and then I paid more to get them stained during the construction process I think you made the best choice in terms of an integrated look for the interior finish and trim of your home. I see lots of trim packages where little thought is given to matching components well. That's an argument for not buying the window company jamb extensions and letting your finish carpenter put everything together. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 12 Mar 2012 10:18 PM |
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Therefore, the question for you, ICFHybrid, is whether your 2012 version of these Pella Designer series windows are similar to mine as described above, or whether the design has changed in such a way that they now use an IGU that has three glazings in a single, sealed unit. The Pella Designer Series windows, delivered in Dec, 2011 and Jan, 2012 do, in fact, have three panes of glass with argon fill in a single sealed unit. Those particular windows with that glazing are pictures because they are all high up in clerestory locations and aren't accessible for opening. I will go back and look at the ratings, but as I recall, I had to let some of the rating values slip a bit in order to make sure the windows matched well with the others in terms of VT and appearance. |
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EnerLux
New Member
Posts:20
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| 12 Mar 2012 11:32 PM |
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Lee, there is a large difference between triple pane performance. Please see http://www.cardinalcorp.com/technology/reference/loe-performance-stats/
For North American testing purposes, Argon gas performs optimally with a 1/2" air space. Using a 1 3/8" IG will provide you two 1/2" air spaces assuming the glass is standard double strength 3mm (1/8") glass. Many large manufactures such as Pella and Marvin have older window systems that do not accommodate a 1 3/8" IG. They may advertise triple pane windows but their U value is not nearly as good as a modern window with a 1 3/8" IG because they are creating a triple pane out of a 1" IG. I use the term true triple pane regularly because of this. The large manufacturers are slow to switch over because they have a significant amount of money and capital invested in equipment, testing, inventory etc... |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 13 Mar 2012 01:45 AM |
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The large manufacturers are slow to switch over because they have a significant amount of money and capital invested in equipment, testing, inventory etc...
Pella is a $1.6 billion company that has been around for nearly a hundred years. The notion that they are slow to respond to changes in the market is not well supported. The big players in the window industry buy and sell other mfrs regularly. The real reason is that consumers primarily demand attractive windows over windows that might be of more interest to users of GBT. Adding a bunch of insulation and clunky glazing competes with the other reasons people buy windows. To look at and through. |
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Lbear
Veteran Member
Posts:2740
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| 13 Mar 2012 03:18 AM |
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The age of a company and it's net worth does not give it infallibility in its designs and energy design/numbers. Actually, when a company gets too large, customer service can suffer and it sometimes becomes too big for its own good. The bigger a company gets and the more overhead it incurs. They are now "standard" equipment windows for mega-tract homes & they sell them at Lowe's. Maybe it's more about quantity than quality. Pella Window Issues
Pella Window ProblemsOnce again, Pella is not horrendous by any means but there are better windows out there and sometimes the smaller companies provide better energy numbers and overall better made windows and better service. The Pella triple-pane window design is not up to par with the other triple pane window designs out there. As mentioned, that is why a Pella triple pane performs just the same as a standard dual pane window, sometimes worse. Pella was not cutting edge when it came to energy design. They were always more focused on looks and energy savings was not top priority. They have since started to focus more on energy but windows with .30 U-Value ratings are not top of the line. They can make a decent window but they are by no means the best choice out there. |
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ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
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| 13 Mar 2012 09:00 AM |
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I think you need to realize that not everyone evaluates products through the same eyes that Lbear does. One of the reasons Pella has been successful is that they are not going after the niche that Serious Windows, for example, has. |
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Lee Dodge
Advanced Member
Posts:714
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| 13 Mar 2012 02:28 PM |
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EnerLux said: "Lee, there is a large difference between triple pane performance. Please see http://www.cardinalcorp.com/technology/reference/loe-performance-stats/ "
Are you trying to communicate that there are large differences between single, double, and triple pane windows, or triple pane windows with different spacings or with different gas fills which are all shown in your link? I can only guess based on the context of previous comments in this thread that you are tryiing to communicate that an IGU with three glazings performs better than an IGU with two glazings combined with another separate single glazing? When you say "...there is a large difference between triple pane performance" please complete the sentence to say, "...there is a large difference between triple pane performance and double pane performance" or whatever you are tyring to get at. In my posting of 10 Mar 2012 11:41 AM, I discussed the increase in U-value of an IGU with two glazings combined with a separate single glazing compared to an IGU with three glazings, so I assume that you would not be trying to communiate that which I already understand and had already discussed in this same thread.
EnerLux said: "For North American testing purposes, Argon gas performs optimally with a 1/2" air space. Using a 1 3/8" IG will provide you two 1/2" air spaces assuming the glass is standard double strength 3mm (1/8") glass. Many large manufactures such as Pella and Marvin have older window systems that do not accommodate a 1 3/8" IG. They may advertise triple pane windows but their U value is not nearly as good as a modern window with a 1 3/8" IG because they are creating a triple pane out of a 1" IG. I use the term true triple pane regularly because of this."
So for you the term "'true' triple pane" only applies to windows that use an IGU with three glazings with argon fills that measure 1 3/8" thick, and to nothing else? I think that your shorthand nomenclature just encourages the failure to communicate, and must be based on trying to elevate your product as the only "true" one. |
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Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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Lee Dodge
Advanced Member
Posts:714
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| 13 Mar 2012 02:43 PM |
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Posted By ICFHybrid on 12 Mar 2012 10:18 PM
Therefore, the question for you, ICFHybrid, is whether your 2012 version of these Pella Designer series windows are similar to mine as described above, or whether the design has changed in such a way that they now use an IGU that has three glazings in a single, sealed unit. The Pella Designer Series windows, delivered in Dec, 2011 and Jan, 2012 do, in fact, have three panes of glass with argon fill in a single sealed unit. Those particular windows with that glazing are pictures because they are all high up in clerestory locations and aren't accessible for opening. I will go back and look at the ratings, but as I recall, I had to let some of the rating values slip a bit in order to make sure the windows matched well with the others in terms of VT and appearance. Thanks for the clarification. The idea of using clerestory windows with proper shading sounds like a potentially excellent way to include passive solar heating without excessive glare (which may or may not be your intention). You might be familiar with the Equinox house ( http://newellinstruments.com/equinox) which uses clerestory windows, and which is now meeting net-zero energy after having installed an air source heat pump following their first winter when they were using electrical resistance heating. (They have not updated the energy use on their website, but I have had private communication with them.) |
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Lee Dodge,
<a href="http://www.ResidentialEnergyLaboratory.com">Residential Energy Laboratory,</a>
in a net-zero source energy modified production house
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