To the contrary Zehboss, the product you are selling is Zehboss, and you share the penchant on this site for attacking competing offerings. But I am content that you accept ORNL's mass work, and by inference, the TMass system as a good solution for the high desert in Arizona. (TMass is far superior to ICF, LBear, because of its ability to buffer passive solar.) My apologies for the diurnal/dihedral business. I see you are fighting an intuitive keyboard.

I share your focus on DIY and natural materials. If I were younger and stronger, I'd be building the way they did 250 years ago in Pa.: masonry walls filled with rubble, with XPS sheathing tossed in. Your approach is a clever adaptation of gabions, but there are many ways to go native, and legacy construction will always be more saleable. Adobe houses fetch a premium in Santa Fe.

Toddm,

Sure, I am trying to convince people to adopt a philosopy of cost performance optimazation, utility elimination, natural local material uses, passive heating and cooling, healthier environment for living, reduced polution, lower embodied energy, thinking out or the box and all things that improve the clients quality of life.

I am convinced that there are better ways to build than buying standardized, packaged, and heavily processed materials. If that is attacking, I am guilty. I normally disagree based on cost for performance, physics, thermodynamics and engineering. No hype or BS.

If you clay render a gabion system it looks like thick adobe at a lower costs.

Brian

Alton,

You can make a box and pre fill the gabions and place them with a crane and surface. Or, you can attach OSB to the outside fill, remove OSB and surface. Or you can hold metal in place with industrial tape, spray insulate inside to attach to wire hold in place with banding fill compact and repeat.

I have surfaced inside with cabinet grade plywood, OSB, drywall, 1x12s, plaster, clay render, cob, stucco, and furring strips with netting. I have also added an additional layer on the surface and created live walls.
The rate of fill depends on the type and size of fill. You do have to cross brace every 6 to twelve inches and check level and plumb continuously. Care needs to be taken to deliver a good job just as in any other method of construction.

You can also buy heavy duty Gabions that can be filled without concern. But, I DIY the gabions using welded wire fence material and poly strapping because it is less expensive but requires more care when filling and compacting.

It adds an additional interest to the project because it gives you many normally high end options you can do inexpensively. You can also build any curved wall at no additional cost which is unheard of in normal building methods. In fact the curved walls are also stronger and more aerodynamic. The more I play with it the more I like it. It delivers on so many levels.

There is a lot of information online using Gabions for retaining walls. Check it out and start thinking and dreaming about the possibilities. They are end less.

Brian

zehboss/Brian, you may have mentioned this before, but in what area are you building at the moment? For some reason I'm thinking Arizona, but I'm not at all sure I've got that right.

This exchange regarding Zehboss' ideas has been interesting.  It has also been less cordial than I prefer especially some of the replies sent in Zehboss' direction.  Zehboss appears to have a pretty good grasp of the first and second laws of thermodynamics based on his comments about R values and how they are not well understood.  I think his ideas have merit, but I think a great deal has been left unsaid.  So I have a few comments; more like questions actually and all are asked with respect.

The proposition as I understand it is that you can build a thermally massive wall structure out of relatively inexpensive materials using relatively less labor than SCIP, SIP or ICF.  This wall system will have very high R values.  My questions are:

The structural components of the Gabions would seem to make them self limiting in the vertical.   How high could I build a 4 ft thick Gabion wall before the hoop stresses at the bottom exceed the strength of the relatively weak structural materials used to hold the wall in column?  The answer should vary with the density of the "filler" material selected but there has to be a limit beyond which expensive steel or other high strength materials have to be brought into the design.  The walls in the SCIP home I have under construction now are 38 ft high.  Would Gabions have been an option?

Walls must not only support themselves but normally have to support a roof.  In my case a floor and a roof. What are the load paths for the roof to the foundation through the Gabions?  If the only structural members are the skins how are they held in column while transferring this load.  If the load path is through the wall filler, how are roof moments transferred?

Speaking of roofs, I'm going to make the assumption the Gabions aren't useable in roofs so something more conventional goes into the design.  At what point does an R-100 wall get overwhelmed by an R-30 or so roof?  Put another way If R's cost $'s at what point do I stop adding R value to the walls and start upgrading the roof?.  I believe answer would be geometry and $/R dependent

Windows are gaping holes in any energy efficient design but my wife insists we have them.  How functional are windows in 4 ft thick walls? 

I'm building in a coastal zone that requires a design resist 130 mph winds.  My engineers structural report shows I have wind resistance up to 150 mph.  The roof requires no special hurricane straps as its weight exceeds the maximum uplift forces for the design wind load.  How do Gabions meet wind load requirements?

Is this system in any State building code?  If not how did you find a structural engineer to sign the drawings so you could get a building permit from the local building authority?

Lastly, if it is at all possible, I'd love to see  a picture of one of these Gabion structures.

Jim

I am also of the opinion that posters to this forum should be more professional in their disagreements.  It is okay to disagree with anyone about anything but it should be done in such a way that it does not stifle learning.  What we all need to keep in mind is that more people than the posters read these forums.  At times, I am afraid that some postings can discourage learning from this medium.

Jim, great questions for Brian.  I love the detailed, respectful way you asked the questions.  I think that Brian will respect anyone that wants to learn by questioning the assumptions.  I await Brians answers because I, too, am interested in learning more about using Gabions and saving energy.

Forgive me for looking at learning as a teacher would do so.  I retired from teaching but still want to learn.

Jim,

Heights of Gabion projects that I know of have exceeded 40 feet. I have not built in my projects above 20 feet in height to date with Gabions. My equipment for lifting the materials on site has limited fill to that height. I have used low mass wall systems above that point. Typically foam filled site built metal surfaced SIPs. General rule of thumb is 1 foot in width for every four feet in height of wall for a straight wall with compacted 3/4 minus fill and no binder. If you mix cement 5 to 10 percent then you can go higher or thinner. Core samples of the final mix needs to be tested to determine strength when going beyond rule of thumb sizing. Curved wall sections can go higher with higher height to width ratios. There are too many variables to give specific advice that might be used incorrectly beyond that without engineering calculations being done for the specific applications.

This is a 40 foot plus tall retaining wall in a commercial application. It is holding back earth, moisture, drainage, with a parking lot and building atop. Home applications are dramatically less demanding. Gabion systems provide a much larger safety factor.

Normally at the floor transition a bond beam is poured in the wall. Reinforcing strapping is placed on 6 inch to 12 inch lift points in the wall depending on system engineering and wall contours. The wall extending above the first story is 3 feet thick. The created ledge is the ledger for the second story floor.

Obviously the roof system needs to be thermal bridge free, well-sealed and well insulated. A standard drop heel truss with an isolated drop cord with a 30 inch fill space for cellulose will deliver R-113 at a low cost. Floor with OSB to handle cellulose weight, spray caulk all seams. This type of truss only costs a couple hundred extra last time I ordered them and the cellulose was about $1 per cubic foot. That is $3 per square foot of attic outline, or $1.50 per foot for a two story home. Blown in labor was one extra day of labor. This is the least expensive upgrade you can add to any home design period. 40% of the energy lost through the standard code home is lost through the ceiling. This upgrade will improve the overall efficiency of the standard home by 39% by itself.

I have also built an arched metal surfaced SIP filled with 14 inches of 2 # polyurethane for similar thermal performance. That system cost less than $20 per square foot provided R-100 insulation, roof surface and internal surface complete.

Windows are stunning with thick walls. I usually flare the side of the windows with a quarter round and have a beautiful window seat below the window. Obviously good windows make a big difference. In a high mass design you can compensate with additional mass if you do not buy super windows. Here again it is a trade off. Thermally R-2 window will need 20 plus cubic feet of added internal thermal mass. R-20 window needs 3ish feet. There is a relationship between the amounts of mass vs. the amount of insulation in all external membranes in the home. The chart below shows that relationship for a specific climate. The graph is part of the engineering for a project to determine the amount of insulation and mass based on yearly thermal needs, insolation, HDD, CDD, wind exposure, ACH 50 value, HRV ventilation, deep earth temperature, rain fall, and other factors.
 
This chart was prepared for a specific job and climate. Due not try to use it for your job. It is not that simple. The chart is different in Alaska vs. Florida. It is climate and sight specific.
 
Obviously wind loading depends on the roof system used. The maximum retention is 4000 #s per foot of roof perimeter retention which is obviously more than any wind loading will require.

Gabions are in the civil sections for retaining wall, bridge support, dam construction, river diversion, earth retention, slope stabilization, all much more demanding applications. The safety factor as I have explained the application is many times any standard home design. Gabion engineering is very common and long established for these other applications which require far higher load carrying capacities.

A PE will need to sign for each state. But all the calculations, standards, and analysis will already be provided for the system so their job is only to confirm the analysis and references. You can usually find a PE with civil and structural back ground that you can work with on the job that will sign. It should be less than a $1000 for the stamp assuming you stay within the guidelines already established. Obviously if you design a home with more demanding applications then established the additional engineering cost will be more.

I will attach some pictures of Gabions in use. I think I have answered all the questions you have asked and have tried to be as open as possible with information. I hope all understand I am trying to be as helpful as possible. I am promoting responsible use of materials in a cost effective sustainable manner. I have been at this endeavor a long time and am trying to help individuals to improve the home owner’s quality of life. I am currently writing a book explaining all of this which is more involved. I am helping a number of individuals with designs at this time. My parents got ill a few years ago so I stopped building to help them as they passed away. They have now moved on and I am starting to gear up the authoring, engineering, design and construction work again. I thought I should try to finish the book before I get deluged with work again.

This is a concept drawing to understand what can be done.                    This is an apartment building using Gabions.

The system will not let me attach additional pictures. I assume I must of reached the limit so I shall stop here. I hope everyone can see that this is a viable low cost high performance option that is very adaptable.

Brian

Earlier in this thread, SCIP Panel was reaching for his infrared camera to see if R20 could be reduced to R8.5 by thermal bridging, as zehboss claimed. You prefer that readers would find misinformation here Alton? To me this site seems less like a classroom than a bucket of crabs. As soon as one starts up the wall, the others pull it down

I have learned a lot from this forum over the years.  Many people have been very patient with me and helped me to learn.

I would like to think of posters of this forum as being friends.  But to be that, we have to be nice to each other.  There is nothing wrong with disagreeing.  However, I think disagreeing is more effective when it is done in a nice way.  No, I am not picking on you or anyone.  I try to avoid conflict and I think most other people do too.  Conflict does not accomplish much in my opinon except to lower respect.  I think that correcting mis-statements or incorrect statements is a natural thing to do and it should be done on this forum.  But we need to get along to learn more.  I would like to see this forum as a place where everyone can participate without the fear of name calling or ridicule.  We all have different levels of knowledge.  No one person can know it all.  But by sharing our thoughts, we can all benefit.  Hopefully, I have stated my opinion a nice positive way.  If I have not, then everyone let me know.

Posted By zehboss on 05 Mar 2012 09:42 PM
A gabion based wall normally does not require a separate foundation. It can be filled with pearlite, pumice, earth, sand, modified earth,(added cement), rammed earth, gravel, road base, concrete, etc. depending on what properties you want to achieve. You can put top soil in a separate 3 to 6 inch surface layer allowing a live wall. You can surface with a material that cost $1 per square foot that will last 100 years in that application with no maintenance.



Gabions are normally used in civil engineering applications. The established engineering of the structure is already complete and standardized. This is simply a repurposing of standard proven materials to a new application.



Brian

Brian - Please understand, I'm not saying your system doesn't work but I do have a few questions that trigger alarm bells. I am familair with gabions in soil retaining and erosion control. One of the main advantages is that as the ground shifts or heaves the gabions because of their lose fill can shift with it and usually because of their weight will settle down again after a frost event or similair occurrence. This may not be an issue in the south but I really can't see using them in a residence with out a frost protected footing.
Also with any loose fill product, gravity usually wins. Any bright young thing has a great figure but with time pear shapes tend to dominate. If there is any unequal movement in the house walls we could have a serious structural problem, no? If you add portland to your soil mix, would you not go from the thermal dynamics of adobe to that of cement since each soil particle is now contained inside a cement coating? Therefore it cannot respond to moisture?
One last thought. The Tax Man always measure the outside.
Bob

Building upon what Alton stated. I have learned a lot from this forum and continue to learn, it is an on-going process as it should be for all people. One can never achieve ultimate knowledge in their lifetime.

Unfortunately on this forum when differing opinions are given, there are some whose pride gets hurt and they go on the attack. There are also some who want their posts to be taken as gospel truth and if you dare question them or their theories, they go on the attack.

It's hard not to get into a battle with these people but instead of responding to them when they do that, it might be best to just ignore them.

Let us learn, post our opinions, but do so in a polite professional manner.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program...

Bob,

All you say has validity and for that reason have all been addressed by the process we have developed. Frost levels have to be addressed in the same way they are for any foundation. Gabions are often used over unstable soils for retention projects as you have said. One of the advantages is that in extreme earth movement they do not fail and can accommodate the earth movement directly below them. This means the structure does not fail in a situation where a standard home would fail. This is a plus not a minus. It will not kill you by collapsing in a severe natural disaster.

Most approved construction sites simply do not have such soils problems. The external surface is water proofed and external to the gabion drainage needs to be accommodated, if below grade. These issues are not any different than a standard home. Poor soils quality on the site require a footer-bond beam to be installed in the bottom of the wall. The Gabion walls normally only require 75 psi support from the soil due to the larger foot print. This is less than a standard house and therefore less likely to be an issue than it is with a standard home. Again gabions are superior at dealing with soil problems, chalk up another bennefit of gabions.

The walls are compacted in 6 inch lifts. Horizontal supports are placed in the cages beyond the normal gabion structure after each lift. This eliminates the potential of the wall changing shape over time. Using curved walls puts the metal surface into stress, this dramatically reduces the potential for wall bulging. Bond beams are also installed at floor transitions. Each bond beam is tensioned to further eliminate settling issues.

In areas where humidity is an issue dehumidification is normally handled by a separate system integrated into the homes ventilation system. Adding Cement does affect the ability of the wall to absorb water but all of this has to be part of the integrated design. You need to solve all the problems associated with any given site and design no matter the system you use. I find our gabion based system to address the issues more flexibly and at a lower cost to performance than any other methodology I know of to date.

Brian

Lbear,

I hope my comments have been helpful. I am trying to help people understand that there are alternative methods that provide superior results at lower costs. To date gabion based systems are delivering the best cost/performance I have experience. That does not mean I will not find something better. I just have not to date.

Sorry you have had to listen to the product bias bashing zealots. I am trying not to be one. I think I am expressing where I am on my journey verses having attached myself to one outcome without being open to alternatives. I usually break it down to dollars of material and labor cost per delivered R-value per foot of wall. I think that measure gives me an unbiased method to compare systems. I realize the effects of mass, climate and many other factors affect the real world performance and consider them in each iterative design process.

The gabion system we are doing works out at 10 cents per R value per square foot of wall including internal and external finish. That is a wall that delivers R-100 with siding and internal finish for $10 per foot installed. If someone has something better I really want to know about it.

Brian

Thanks for the blog. I had to laugh at the classic "I'm adding water but don't worry, it will hardly effect the strength".

Load test passes.


http://waterfrontbuildinginpanamacity.blogspot.com

How much weight did you use with what thickness of mortar?

Standard 6 bag with pea gravel with a 6 inch slump for fill in post and beam. Panels had 1/2" high strength figer reinforced surface bond cement.

Brian

Posted By jonr on 25 Mar 2012 09:17 PM
How much weight did you use with what thickness of mortar?

The concrete was 1-1/2 inch thick on all sides of all panels.  Strength was 5500-5900 psi

Posted By zehboss on 26 Mar 2012 03:32 AM
Standard 6 bag with pea gravel with a 6 flump.

Concrete was from a local redimix plant.  Spec'd at 6000 psi on the truck. Somewhere between 5500-5900 psi after water/clay additive needed for shotcrete machine.  Aggregates were three different sands and fly ash (no gravel).  1/2 to 1 inch slump as it leaves the shotcrete nozzle.

This stuff has to stick to overhead panels without falling to the ground.