I'm still kicking around the pros and cons of each method and haven't decided for absolute certain which way I'm going to go. I'm still waiting for one of the surface wiring advocates to give me info on what multiple gang boxes they use that has enough room to accommodate the myriad deep devices without having to forcefully cram the device and wires into the box. I've put enough of those things into typical 1 3/4" or 2" deep boxes with 12 ga wires to know I don't want to do again!

As for structured wiring I don't know what I want to install where. I plan to take care of that by putting boxes, with conduit stubs into the crawl space, along interior and exterior walls and blank cover them. Or, I might cram a wad of aluminum foil into the box and cover it with the drywall and then use a stud finder to locate one when I want to use it. I might do that near the ceiling also with conduit stubs into the attic.

One reason why the Plastilock developer/owner is so adamant about the value of his boxes is because he told me he conduit wires the entire house. I also read on the JLC Forum where some electricians conduit wire all their homes in the Chicago area I think it is. That's even in the areas outside of Chicago where code doesn't require it. I think it's Chicago which requires all homes to be conduit wired. You won't find agreement between the conduit and romex advocates in that crowd either! And ICF isn't even part of the equation!

Hey... I'm all for conduit for structured wiring if you want to "future proof" but you really have to decide what you want and how much it will add to resale if you are not going to be there for 40 years.

1/2 inch conduit is not conducive to running paired coax through -- esp. with the bends I see in their product video.  And if you have a dual-tuner TiVo then you want 3 coax so you can also do an antenna if you want -- that's future proof.  Then, you also have to have another conduit to run at least 2 cat-6 for network and phone to those same locations, plus more -- that's future proof. 

Thus, instead of 1 labor run for all of that -- either in a 2 in plastic conduit (cheap irrigation pipe or similar) or "free-form" like we did, you have twice the "pull labor" and twice the initial install labor with this product.  It does not make a bit of sense to me. 

One can cheaply future-proof a house for any and all A/V and network without the labor and expense of adding this product.  And if one is really anal-future-proof, then run a 2 inch conduit from the wiring center, along the attic ceiling, to every room's interior wall where it meets the ceiling -- and you're done.

The electrical is up to you.

ok, dallas, heres the deal: using conduit is not just about "future-proofing" the structure, it's about doing the job right. placing all wiring and cable in conduit is the only way you can do a commercial job. why/ because it's right. therefore, when doing an ICF structure, which is more of a commercial building type, do it the way it is done on all concrete jobs. I am not attacking any method, and typically low voltage wiring doesn't count anyway because its not true wiring. but, if all the electrical is done right, which is with conduit, then the electrician should just go ahead and do all the systems that way. 1 3/4" conduit is all that is needed to each phone, catv, or other low voltage outlet. all electricians can do all audio and video themselves, but if the builder or owner wish to have a seperate contractor do it, then all they have to do is pull the proper cable through the conduit. it is by far the best and easiest way to do it.

Mac

Gee, Mac... 4 posts since April... and every single one of them defending conduit.  See Mac's only 4 lifetime posts defending conduit here. 
Does that mean you sell conduit, Mac?

Beyond that, your comments (bolded above) that conduit is "doing the job right" and is "[doing it ] the way it is done on all concrete jobs" is so patently hilarious I could cry.  Mac... please tell all the pros here why they have been planning and stacking and pouring and building homes the wrong way for the past umpteen years. 

Please tell me, too, because I'm typing this via a wireless laptop on my porch, working via a wired repeater in our master suite, done using structured cabling in the attic that was done wrongly.  I need to know why it's working so well when it was done so incorrectly!  I want to tell my great ICF pro here why he steered my architect wrong, so he can do it your "correct" way next time!

And, saying "all electricians can do audio and video" is like saying all heart surgeons treat sore throats.  I have yet to meet an electrician that knows ANYTHING practical about planning, mapping and future-proofing a home for networks, the Internet and A/V.  If they DID, they would be running such a business instead, at 3X the money they make doing electrical work!

And for you to say that 1 3/4" conduit will accomodate all that's necessary -- well all I can say is: have a nice life selling conduit to dummies.  Hint:  there's a book title there for you.  But it will take more than 4 conduit-selling posts to write.  

dmaceld...

I've had to run electrical boxes in my ICF house ... What a bitch !! The easy part is routing the wires.. ( Router ) but attaching the
boxes to the concrete is wayyyyy to long and time consuming for the average joe. Don't forget alot of guys here a pros and will give
you opinion bases on their experience sometime forgettting that you are a noob to all this and lack the experience.

So when we built my friends house last year, we opted for Plastilock also. The only thing we did is drill the side of the boxes and ran the wire
from the side ( My friend didn't want to invest the $$ for all the tubing ). Everything went fine and fast.

I'm building myself another icf house and will be using plastilock also. maybe from the side ou using the tubing.. still dont know about that...

Francis

The inspector didn't call you on it? Changing the box to, or using it in a, configuration not in accordance with its UL listed and tested configuration could get you into trouble. This is based on comments by electricians on other forums. I just tried to find a specific reference in the NEC but couldn't find it. Play it safe, use the box the way it was designed to be used.

Future proofing for A/V, networking, etc. is certainly a desirable goal. The problem is, the future keeps changing! What, about 15 years ago you wouldn't have found Cat 5 in the average, or upper middle class home, anywhere. Then probably 10 years ago it hit the home networking business big time. Probably every future-proof high class home had Cat 5 strung all over the place. Now, to a great extent it's being usurped by wireless. Fifteen or 20 years ago the smart builder would have run 8 or 10 ga heavy duty Monster Cable to the top of the living room walls to power those huge speakers that were so popular then. (I've still got a pair of Bose 901s!) Then comes along the subwoofer system with the small discreet tweeters on the wall, right in front of those, oh so hip, huge wires dangling unused from the wall!

30 years ago or so, telcos used to come in and prewire a home at no charge to be ready for the future of telephony. They ran a wide ribbon cable on top of the studs throughout the house so you could punch a hole in the wall most anywhere and tap into a phone wire pair. Now, how many plug-in phones do most homes have, 1, 2, and 4 to 10 cordless phones scattered around. And those are disappearng as folks switch more and more to cell phone only. Ah yes, planning for the future is grand!

I sure ain't going to let myself get wrapped around the axle about installing all the latest and greatest in home A/V and networking wiring, because I'm not using much of it now myself, and who knows what's coming down the pike?

I'll spend a few bucks for boxes and conduit stub ups into the attic and crawl space and figure it was a good investment if 20% get used in the next five years!

We don't use the plastilock boxes as they seem a bit expensive. However we do run everything electrical (power, comms, video, sound, fiber, lighting control, alarm, etc...) in conduit. We have a simple method of running the conduit that does not slow down the erecting or pouring crews. It also lends itself to panelized construction, which we are using for the first time this month.

The construction system we use is a speedfloor/hambro type suspended deck and vertical icf product. We assemble 30-40' section including all electrical penetrations and horizontal reinforcing steel. The electrician runs the conduit (pvc) in a loop from the back of the electrical box to an elevation 2" below the bottom of the suspended deck. The conduit is cut 3/4" proud of the interior foam and then protected by a piece of 3/4" plywood; drilled for the conduit and screwed to the closest web. In this way the conduit is protected and does not interfere with placement crews on the scaffold.

After the pour the electrician removes the plywood, glues a coupling to the conduit stub and proceeds to continue his run in the open joist bays. Usually we place pull boxes in the closet ceilings to keep the individual runs short and to increase wire pulling efficiency. Then everything is run to utility rooms in large conduits.

It's been our experience that this method is faster than the chainsaw method and pretty much dollar neutral with running romex through the walls, when all labor costs are figured in. Client feedback has been very positive.

This system saved us a great deal of money when some lighting control wires got cooked in a lightning storm and had to be removed and replaced. Cost $200, versus tearing out plaster/blue board or rerouting.

The downside is that the electrical design must be completed and agreed upon before the icf is erected. Also if you have a client that keeps changing the interior then you may end up with conduits in the middle of partitions (not a big problem) or a code compliance issue to deal with.

Wolf, Dallas And Mac, I agree with Dallas we have seen Macs post before and we can plainly see he is a Electrician that has came on to this forum late and doesn't understand it. It's plainly obvious that the majority doesn't use conduit for stick frame construction or ICF. Wolf, why would you take the time to attach your boxes to the concrete???? And then claim you did! That would be like some one pouring 1000ft of ICF wall on a concrete floor and tapa-coning ( concrete screws) all bracing to the floor with two screws when they could glue a block of would to the floor and screw to that in a matter of minutes. Yes both methods work, but the concrete screws are time consuming and they both work equally. I understand as a non professional that many of you out there have not had the experience to try things like this but this is what we are here for to help and answer to your questions. As far as any questions go as to the conduit impeding concrete flow it doesn't help in a DUI pour, and who would want to wait for pre-pour wiring when its not necessary. Its so easy to install wiring in a ICF properly without conduit the wire is the same distance from the face of the RO as wood ( or further) and attaches to the ICF studs in seconds. I think I'll shoot you a video to prove it.

Dave

Hi walltech,

When I first built my house in 2000, Plastilock were unknow to me and my basement was done in ICF as a first try project to determine easyness and all...
When I finished my basement 2 years later I had to run electrical/network/phone/sat so I used regular electrica boxes with tapcon to attach them to the concrete.

The boxes were never straight, pre-drill than screw arghhhh nightmare.... maybe i was lacking the experience and the know how....

But when we built my friends house Plastilock were out, so we used them but the idea of spending all that time and money on conduits wasn't appealing. So instead
we had the girls drill the boxes sides through and through and put wire nubs so the boxes were install and when the pour was all done we simply routed the wires from
one box to the other like you would do regulary...

We saved ourselve the work of the steel boxes drill/tapcon and then we saved the time/money of conduits.. And yes the inspector gave us the ok since the boxes
are plastic and we used wire nubs..

Wolf

Apparently your local ICF support wasn't very electrical savvy, they could have pointed you to a screw on box, .89 cents at home-depot that is 3" deep and screws right to the ICF tie/stud. Thanks for the input.

Dave

With PlastiLock boxes, these are the only UL listed approved for ICF wall construction, as for a first time ICF home builder this was a big plus and with the option for future upgrades this was another big plus (A++) . 

Conduit, I plan on using 1/2" conduits for the strikers (window and doors) on the alarm system too. It seems on other forums the option for replacing wire or testing the system for breaks in wire is a good option.

The electrician and myself are running the electrical boxes (plastilock) as shown in their videos and stubing out the electrical series and PVC of each electrical boxs in their series to a common interior wall. Where the interior wall studs joins the ICF wall. Drill a hole for the PVC to stub into stud. Then run wire in series to each box on common interior wall and back to home run (panel box) while meeting all electrical codes.

With computer, communication, and electrical technology changing in the future, the option for future upgrades was another reason for using these boxes. I'm not using much of the wireless electronics as for radio wave interference and cut off communication between the reciever and transmitter at this time.

Will be running 12 volt system in the interior and exterior of home too.

Very True Walltech.

But that was the least of his problem... The ICF supplier/contractor I dealt with actually left me to rot by leaving me with an unfinished house to which
i had to complete kitchens, exterior stone work and Novabrik, decks, wiring etc etc... I sued him for a big amount and won 5 years later. but when the 4 inspection
were done they all came to -+ 185k or corrective work and compensation...

That's why I'm building myself the next one... :) 7 Years ago you didn't have all the expertise at the fingertip like today, with site and knowledge you guy's bring..

Wolf

walltech, would like to see the video.

Any electrical box connection ideas for the IntegraSpec form specifically? That form has an integrated "waffle" type pattern on the inside edges that allow the concrete to come back in towards the structure's interior about .25", thus preventing the attaching of the 3" Carlon box sold at Home Depot (the flange sits away from the interior foam edge about that 1/4").

I was planning on sighing heavily and use 1x3 scrap pieces behind metal boxes and using tapcons to get the boxes mounted.

WayToGo coming soon!

Dave