Cost of building ICF or stick built
Last Post 02 Jun 2013 10:16 PM by robinnc. 47 Replies.
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Cattail BillUser is Offline
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06 Aug 2007 09:37 AM
I have read what has been said above and I have to agree with the statment that contractors at least some of them over inflat the cost because they can not because they need to, at this point I have 107 builds and some of them very unique with mega oppurtunity for voids and problems. When the project is done properly none of this is of concern to our crew. No one on the crew has an upset stomach during the pour as they know they have done there job properly and efficeintly.

Ok to the point of the post, and I agree with earlier statements in this forum, the prices charged can be higher for basicly two reasons one the contractor has no competition so he charges what ever he can get away with, or the lack of knowledge and the fear of doing the job correctly will cause the contractor to pad the cost just in case.

This all goes back to the quality of the manufacturer making and selling the product. The manufacturers lack of quality training (in all aspects of the products use which should include job site efficiency, estimating, proper accessories, proper equipment, proper concrete mix, waterproofing, finishing, and probably the most important the design of the project). With design most of the time it can be changed ever so slightly to reduce or eliminate waste of product. Efficeincy can be accomplished by having things like window bucks, rebar, and cut forms pre made and placed where they will be used. One of the first projects I built with our crew we had the forms up on the bank instead of in the hole , waste of time there, we had people standing around waiting for rebar to be bent, and all of a sudden we had people standing around waiting for window bucks, basicly 40% of the waste on that job was labor.

Yes it still cost money to pre make those items but in a production scenario we get them done faster (in most cases 50%) so we are more efficeint at the site as well, and all of those things can be done at the shop just by looking at the print and making a list with positions numbered and a matching number marked on the print for the items in question.

This is part of the factory training that should be required but often missed in training as the factory only trains how to install and rarely trains efficient job site, or build design.

The other cost factor is the subs again most poorly trained or left guessing instead of being trained by the factory, and again the fear factor enters so padding price occurs, I have not met a sub yet that once trained charges more than they normally would in fact most of my subs can finish the job quicker so they charge less.

Here in Minnesota we are doing full builds for about $12.75 a sq. of wall surface with minor up charge when design adds additional windows and corners, this is to the level of ready to finish, which in block and wood is framed out insulated, sheeted on the outside, waterproofed, ro's done and ready to accept windows or doors, and top plate in place ready to accept rafters. That price is very competitive with stick frame, the only thing that beats us is the prefabs, or trailer houses and why waste time with ICF if you wanted a trailer house.
robinncUser is Offline
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09 Aug 2007 11:56 PM
Thanks for all of the info Cattails. The $12.75/sf, what does that include?
irnivekUser is Offline
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10 Aug 2007 09:54 AM
Robincc:
"simple basement within driving distance can be done easily as low as $2 a sq. ft."

I will clarify.
For us, this is not a homeowner direct install price, homeowners require large amounts of much energy and coordination.
This is not a first time contractor price, as they also require a large amount of back rubbing.
This is not a price to have us install one of about 60 poor ICF forms on the market...
Again, "simple" does not include brickledge, nor over ten corners, waterproofing extra. Add $1000 dollars minimum for brickledge, it will push us into another days work and waterproofing issues...

However, when me make a production line out of the system, with a qualified contractor/distributor who coordinates well and pays upon subsantial completion (pour day) math for a simple basement works out like this:
-10n mobilization hours; this includes me driving to the site, talk with the builder, moblize materials, punch window and door RO's into our computer program which prints us a cut sheet for all bucks and temporary bracing. Coordinate delivery of material and tools/bracing. Make my lunch. Pay some bills.
-Myself and two carpenters on site for a 12 hour day. Walls are ready to pour.
Pour the walls early in a morning, while walls are curing, we waterproof. Tear down the walls the same afternoon. (Another 12 hour day)
-So we incur 24 carpenter hours, and 34 lead man hours on a simple basement. Possibly 8 hours total travel time, driving only one vehicle,

We have a 2000 sq. ft. "minimum," so $4000 labor. Add $1 for waterproofing. We gross $6k in three days.

My two hard working carpenters make minimum $1000 a week each, and provide no tools. They have young families, carpenters should not be bottom feeders. This given week, the guys may take a 4 day weekend, make some window bucks for an above grade job, or do side work for their inlaws for the rest of the week...

We recently did a 60 by 120 ft. volunteer fire station with 16 ft. walls, working out to less than $2.00 a sq. ft. labor. And we made money. It was a community effort, the firefighters donated some labor, and learned how to build their own homes in the future. An 80 year old lady insisted on laying out rebar.

I don't think everyone should think $2 is a base price, just offering that it is possible, especially in a production environment where multiple simple basements are available. Some two man farming operations do 3000 acres, some two man farming operations are busy all year on 1200 acres.

ICF is worth more, so my eyebrows raise at the fact the process is in some way supposed to compete with inferior building practices costs. I would argue that ICF costs are not inflated. The costs reflect the value in the system, which the discerning consumer will see.

Kevin

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10 Aug 2007 01:06 PM
Great input Kevin,

I think most don't expect ICF to be the same price as stick but it is frustrating to nail down estimated costs in planning stage to determine the price for a budget. There are estimates ranging from even with stick to 20% more than stick floating around (understanding complexity makes it vary) I suppose standards and benchmarks will develop as more contractors use ICF for an average project. The only reason people compare stick to ICF is you have to have some starting point in which to judge added value. Like specific gravity of a material is based on relative density to water.
Cattail BillUser is Offline
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10 Aug 2007 02:23 PM
Dont know what happened there but here ir is.
The $12.75per sq' includes the labor, product, rebar, mud, an amortized cost on equipment, and company profits. It does not include the cost of window bucks, slab, footing, plumbing, or electrical. As stated above by Kevin this is a basic build not over 6 corners and not more than 4 openings we charge additional for those. For additional openings we charge an additional $100 for additional corners we charge an additional $75 this will cover the extra labor.
I agree with Kevin with our crew of 5 guys we can do a 50 X 70 14' side wall 2 openings complete poured and cleaned up in 2 days.
I grew up in manufacturing and we always looked at the way the Japanese people model there efficeincy system and I have adopted that to the build process. This is something we had to do to compete with the Japanese manufacturers here in the states. Our customers included Harley Davison, Case International, we make parts for almost all of the auto manufacturers forgein and domestic, and this is only possible becuase we run a very efficeint company.
Yet when I go to construction job sites it amazes me that 50% of the crew are standing around watching the other 50% work and the boss does not understand why he can not make any money. Perhaps he should fire the 50% that are not working, that should increase his bottom line quite nicely.
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10 Aug 2007 09:45 PM
It's still hard to get an accurate price here as many things enter into the equation.  What do you pay for concrete delivered?  What is the pump charge in your area?  Window bucks, who takes care of this these?  What kind of bucks do you use?   Who bends all the re-bar and does all the lintels and stirrups?  Are the scabs removed and the walls and floor pressure washed when you leave?  How long do you leave up the bracing after the pour?  I don't remember the last time I saw a house with 6 or less corners and four or less openings.  
Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com
Cattail BillUser is Offline
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12 Aug 2007 11:22 AM
Tom
Our concrete is bouncing around in the $100 per yard neighborhood, pump truck in this case is very close and we try to have two to three projects ready for the day so we can consume the time on the truck as one travel time, we have even worked with other contractors to share that expense. The cost on our pump is $200 to show up they are 35 miles away, then it is $75.00 per hour, and $3.50 per yard so by buying the truck for the day we amortize the $200 on all of the pours being done and we are not paying that for each one seperatley also we are not paying for clean out time of the pump our blead time. Buy the way the pours may not all be walls some maybe the flat work or footing for the next build, we like to pump our flat work rather than tailgate it is much more efficient and takes less people to do it this way, and no risk of a truck getting to close to a bank and caving it in.

We make all of our window bucks with V-buck at the shop this is not done until we have an approval signature from the customer and they have an understanding if they change that once the buck is built they own the buck and a new one at additional cost will be made. Two people can build bucks using the radial arm saw and a work table, we get a RO print out from the window company numbered then as the buck is built a number is marked on it with permanent marker and that number is then marked on the print, at the job site that number is marked on the footing or slab during layout so that anyone who is trained knows what to do and where to place a window buck we even mark the elevation of the bottom of the buck or I should say the buck RO at the time of layout.

Rebar again is pre bent by us at the shop and labeled in there groups we happen to use H as our rebar location identifier followed by a number, when we go to the next floor we use M the reason for those letters is they are massive letters verses I for example much easier to see. Some pieces of rebar may have several bends in them on our horizontal runs, but the only ones that we cut are the verts and stirrups and those are gang cut in a large old band saw we have, (bought it at a manufacturers auction dirt cheap).

We leave the bracing in place until the floor is hung that way it is easier and safer to hange the trusses. yes scabs are removed this is a very minimal task as we make every effort to do our splicing at an opening, with basements that is a little more difficult but when I review the prints I also mark on the print where the splice should be and the measurement of the cut so that the crew can production cut all of those once they are at the site for example if you have a 7 block basement and the splice block needs to be 18" long they will cut 7 of those and I mark where we can use the remander of the block on a diffirent wall even though it may require an additional cut it will get cut and then placed where they will be stacked, this helps reduce our waste at the end of the job. We have not yet had to hire a dumpster on any of our sites, the most waste we have is the packaging of the bundles of forms and very minimal form scrap.

Pressure washing I do not know why we would do that we place sheeting on our slabs prior to the pour just incase of spills but we have a dam good pump operator I can not remember the last time Gilligan spilled concrete outside of the wall, we are his favorite crew to work with he has never had a bad pour with us and he has trained other crews in how we do things so his job goes better.

I agree with you on the house with 6 corners and 4 openings and again we do charge extra for those as noted in my earlier post. It is pretty rare these days not to have at least 10 corners, and we just finished one with 32 corners and 114 windows and door openigs. most of the corners where either 45 or 30 degree there was only 4 square corners in this project but the folks that wanted it built are both surgeons so they got what they where willing to pay for with out being gouged.

Hope that clears up your questions if not let me know I will try to give you more detail.

Cattail bill
robinncUser is Offline
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23 Aug 2007 12:27 AM
Cattail Bill........do you have a brother or cousin in the Charlotte, NC area in this business?........... :).......I'm having a very hard time finding someone local that knows what they are talking about! Frustrating!
Cattail BillUser is Offline
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23 Aug 2007 11:55 PM
No I do not have any relatives in your area but I will call a freind out that way they have done several projects one was a bunch of stuff for a historical park, I will try to get ahold of Steve and see who he has out there.
robinncUser is Offline
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24 Aug 2007 12:15 AM
Thanks Bill...!
walltechUser is Offline
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25 Aug 2007 06:45 PM
Robinnc: Try Manfred Noble from Moss Pointe Builders, I believe he is in your area and is very reputable.

Dave
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25 Aug 2007 11:44 PM
Is that a sub contractor or a GC? I have heard of Moss Builders and they are the General Contrators. I'm going into the business of building houses in this area as a GC.
What part of NC are they located?
Cattail BillUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2007 11:21 AM
Dave sent you the same name that I received from Steve hope that works out for you.
walltechUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2007 12:20 PM
Manfred is from Chockwinitti area," not sure on the spelling" 1-252-341-5956. He is currently working on projects in the Caymans but I'm sure a phone call to him will clarify his schedule. Manfred would prefer to do ICF only.

Dave
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28 Aug 2007 11:59 PM
Posted By walltech on 08/26/2007 12:20 PM
Manfred is from Chockwinitti area," not sure on the spelling" 1-252-341-5956. He is currently working on projects in the Caymans but I'm sure a phone call to him will clarify his schedule. Manfred would prefer to do ICF only.

Dave
Thanks Dave and Cattail,

He's working in the Caymans??????? As in Cayman Islands?? It doesn't sound off the top of my head that I could afford him.......:(.....Does he do work in NC on a regular basis?

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29 Aug 2007 08:05 AM
I was just talking to a home builder remodeler (last night) and mentioned to him that I would like to build an ICF home. His comment was that it is THREE times the cost of 2x6 stick built home. Then he went on to say that concrete has gone up $10/yd. etc etc. Even if concrete has gone up $10/yd you aren't using 1,000 yds of concrete. 100 yards of concrete is only an increase of $1000 for a $300,000 home that cost increase is negligible. It is really frustrating that on this board that we cannot get ICF builders to tell us real costs and give us examples of stick vs. ICF costs. What are you afraid of? Don't you keep records? Are you people interested in getting this method building off the ground or not? Give us numbers!!!

I did send in plans for a two story house that was economically designed and aproximetly 3200 square feet. I recieved a quote to construct from footings (including a basement) to the rafters for the icf (not just the product but also the installation) of $72,800. This did not include any flooring, this is just the walls and footings. Obviously this is no where near the total cost of a completed home. Can the rest of it add up to $230,000? I was hoping for a completed home to come in near $100/square foot. Am I un realistic?
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29 Aug 2007 04:05 PM
Posted By tc-cad on 08/29/2007 8:05 AM
I was just talking to a home builder remodeler (last night) and mentioned to him that I would like to build an ICF home. His comment was that it is THREE times the cost of 2x6 stick built home. Then he went on to say that concrete has gone up $10/yd. etc etc. Even if concrete has gone up $10/yd you aren't using 1,000 yds of concrete. 100 yards of concrete is only an increase of $1000 for a $300,000 home that cost increase is negligible. It is really frustrating that on this board that we cannot get ICF builders to tell us real costs and give us examples of stick vs. ICF costs. What are you afraid of? Don't you keep records? Are you people interested in getting this method building off the ground or not? Give us numbers!!!

I did send in plans for a two story house that was economically designed and aproximetly 3200 square feet. I recieved a quote to construct from footings (including a basement) to the rafters for the icf (not just the product but also the installation) of $72,800. This did not include any flooring, this is just the walls and footings. Obviously this is no where near the total cost of a completed home. Can the rest of it add up to $230,000? I was hoping for a completed home to come in near $100/square foot. Am I un realistic?


Does the 3200 sq ft include all space including basement & garage?  I plan to reach out for some estimates in the next week on my addition and for similar sq ft but only expect the wall system (not including slab or any interior structure) to cost $30-$40K based on the $12-$15 sq/ft range mentioned earlier. (30' x 52' 15' tall for 2460 sqft of surface area)

As far as asking for the real costs there is a dated thread called "ICF Pricing" (2001) where the builders challenged each other to provide a detailed cost breakdown for a mock 20' x 100' building.  Obviously material costs have gone up 20-30% but even so theirs was $20K-$25K for 2400 linear ft so it gives you an idea of how things breakdown, and still on track with what I am hoping to get with current prices.

Mark Ross has a great breakdown and went so far as to provide the breakdown for most of the envelope from foundation to siding and HVAC with radiant at a respectable $35/ft up to that point.

I hope it helps.

v/r Scott

http://greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/view/topic/forumid/4/postid/176/Default.aspx

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29 Aug 2007 05:19 PM
Posted By tc-cad on 08/29/2007 8:05 AM
I was hoping for a completed home to come in near $100/square foot. Am I un realistic?
Probably.

Depends entirely where you live and how much house you want. I'm working on coming up with a cost estimate for the ICF house I hope to begin in a few weeks. This will be primarily a owner/builder project. For a house 2400 sq ft outside the walls, one story over crawl space, with a 28'x32' garage, I'm over $100/sq ft and not all the labor costs are in yet. This doesn't count the lot which we already own. I've yet to plug in labor for the following:  ICF wall block erection, roof truss and sheathing erection, and interior wall construction. I've got material costs plugged in for everything except for interior finish wood and hardware. Concrete subcontract price is in. I haven't thrown in a number for landscaping yet, either. I got some pricing from the builder who is going to help me, and be on record as the GC. When we talked about kitchen cabinets he basically said pick a number, any number, from $10,000 to $100,000. A kitchen will cost whatever you want it to cost, from super economical construction to extreme custom construction. I put in $15,000, and hope that's enough. Tile and hardwood floors, which I'm doing, cost more than sheet vinyl. Built-in appliances cost more than stand alone. Wood trim around windows cost more than wrapped sheet rock. Heat pump and hydronic heat, the best system there is for heating, will cost more than an 85% efficient gas furnace and ducting. I have only some labor cost factored in for the heating system. I plan to do much of that myself, and the dollars are adding up so much already I'm afraid I won't get a loan if I put in an estimate for everything!

Because of all the variables in what you can have in a house, it's almost useless to try to say an ICF house will cost this much while a stick-built will cost that much. The only meaningful comparison you can hope for is the cost of exterior walls. But stick built walls will vary depending on how energy efficient you build them, so even an exterior wall cost comparison can be dicey.

Economy homes here in Idaho are selling for something like $125+ per sq ft, including lot. One of my brothers, a county commissioner in Idaho, said a developer proposed an "affordable" housing complex in central Idaho with ~1000 sq ft homes selling for $175,000, including lot! Last year I sold my 1700 sq ft home in Louisiana for $107/sq ft, and that was with a $30,000 post Katrina boost in price.

The only way you can get a meaningful cost comparison is to design your home with both stick walls and ICF walls and get construction bids on both sets of plans. Or you can do as I did. Just say, "Screw the potential cost differential, I'm going to build it as energy efficient as possible, and know when I'm done I'm going to have warm comfortable house in the winter, and cool in the summer!"

Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help!
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30 Aug 2007 11:52 PM
Robinnc, yes you can afford Manfred, you'll find his pricing in line with most proffesionals. He is just finishing work there and would prefer to work in his home state than out of town. But who wouldn't go where the season is long and the weather is warm year round, heck I'm sure you would rather be there also. Give him a call.

Dave
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01 Sep 2007 12:16 AM
I wouldn't mind working there for a month or two....and getting some scuba diving on the side......:)
I'll do a search for him and see if I can find him.
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