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Wood Frame vs ICF insulation value?

Last Post 11 Feb 2008 05:49 PM by Reward Engineer. 28 Replies.

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PanelCrafters User is Offline

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Posts:680

28 Jan 2008 08:49 PM
Posted By Quantum on 01/28/2008 4:26 PM Since Lockard seems to have fled, maybe I need to go on over to the SIP forum and explain it all there... Quanster, This thread concerns Insulation Values(aka R-Value). If you want to attack SIPS in an effort to change the topic, be my guest, but that will not change the facts. Your attempts to show ICF superiority are fraught with factural inaccuracies. Between Reward and you, I'm not sure who the 'Poster Boy' for ICF's should be. But your combined 'wild claims' are doing more harm than good, for the ICF industry.

....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?

woulfcc

Basic Member

Posts:147

29 Jan 2008 12:51 AM
Thank you for all the info on R values Its an interesting debate. the personalties are sometimes over the top! I have one thing to add, walls only make up 26% of a heat loss. Thats it. Roofs,windows,air infiltration are so much more important than walls. We need to look at the whole envelope to get the heat loss and gain.(Walls are just a part) Now that being said what about an icf roof? Theirs a build in MI. that has a icf walls,icf roof ,geothermal heat pump, radiant floors all the good stuff. The heat bill I was told was $16.00 last month. Yes this stuff works, we can see that, but this house has been on the market a few times and no buyers. What dose that tell you? (The normal Joe doesn't want it?) My point is an R22 wall next to an R.04 window (or a filter glass roof) is an argument about irrigation in a rain storm. If you are not talking about the building envelope your blowing hot air (somewhere else). Just my opinion (yours may vary)

Changing How the World BUILDS!<br>Green , Done , Easy<br>Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin

frammer

New Member

Posts:4

29 Jan 2008 03:17 AM
dude i like the CHANGIN HOW THE WORLD BUILDS

http://frammerboy.jaxhomerepairs.com/pics/apCAFAE0GD.png

Quantum

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Posts:255

29 Jan 2008 09:07 AM
Posted By pcoughlin on 01/28/2008 8:48 PM Please go save the world Quantum lol. Well, it seems that a college-level explanation is lost on some. No, equivalent and effective R-values are not the same. That's what I get for trying to support your means of income, pcoughlin. No good deed goes unpunished.

ContractorPete User is Offline

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Posts:115

29 Jan 2008 11:37 AM
No I totally agree that equivalent and effective R-values are different. To me it is safe to assume that the author in the post I made used both the terms very loosely because lets face it, the terms have not really been set in stone or argued about in a serious way until just a few years ago (also given the fact that the book was published in late 2003, early 2004). What I liked about that segment from the book however, was it put the ICF insulation r-value vs. framed insulated r-value into nice easy to read/understand context. There are so many people that get confused on the R-value thing when it comes to ICF's. Especially when there is so much inconsistency in the industry when it comes to educating the ICF consumer. p.s. - There is a thing called sarcasm. lol

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ICFconstruction User is Offline

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29 Jan 2008 09:53 PM
After 15 years as a construction consultant and insurance adjuster (relating to construction claims) I decided to start a construction company, using the best wall construction method currently available. While superior to wood framing and a great product for many roof structures, SIPs have a couple major disadvantages when compared to ICFs. SIP construction is not as strong as ICFs and SIPs support mold growth and ICFs do not. Assuming the same EPS thickness ICFs are more energy efficient. We are currently building and ICF house next door to a timber framed and SIP house. The house has a couple more inferior components, when compared to our house; a removable form foundation, rim area of the floor system. What kind of foundation do SIP contractors recommend?

Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net

walltech

Basic Member

Posts:390

30 Jan 2008 05:17 AM
Bottom line guys is this. We know concrete doesn't rot, and we know when a house is rotten and torn down after 100 years the "CONCRETE" foundation is still their. Only time will tell the overall tail of ICF vrse wood construction, but I think all here already know that answer. Besides, when have you seen a ICF wall flex in the wind or seen screw pops or tape sags in a structure that doesn't shrink or flex like wood. This has been the biggest complaint from ICF foundation owners with sips upper. Dave

Lockard

New Member

Posts:40

31 Jan 2008 01:34 AM
OK Quantum, I had to flee to Arkansas Monday morning. Some meth heads broke into one of our tool trailers and cleaned it out. I’m back. If you want some kind of proof about the Marriott hotels, and I don’t blame you, here is some: The one in Springfield was the last one we did. The other two are in Poplar Bluff and West Plains, MO. I no longer have the project manuals for the last two. I will not reveal the name of the developer. But you could contact FisherSips and ask them if they supplied the panels in 1995/1996 for the Fairfield Inn in Springfield, PB and WP. If Fisher didn’t do PB & WP, then it would have been: Foam Products, Corp. (used to be Foam Products, Inc.) 2525 Adie Rd Maryland Heights, MO , 63043-3538 Phone: 314-739-8100 (not sure if it’s 314 anymore. If not, it’s 573.) They’re not making structural panels anymore, but we used them from 1984 to 1996. Ask for Joe Russo. He might still be there. Call the Arch/Eng firm to verify the numbers of floors and type of construction. You could just drive by, but unless you have X-Ray vision or a cordless drill, you won’t be able to tell if they are SIPs or not. Time for me to go. Next issue will be about my personal experience with fire and SIPs that can be backed up by the Boone County Volunteer Fire Dept. (Southern District), the district fire marshall and an insurance investigator, if you like. Me...... juvenile? As if.
Attachment: Marriott4.jpg
Lockard

Reward Engineer User is Offline

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11 Feb 2008 05:49 PM
It was brought to our attention the posting regarding our Dynamic R-Value study we completed last year for the Reward iForm insulating concrete forms. The purpose of this study was to show that it is virtually impossible to insulate a wood frame wall enough to get the same energy performance as one would get with an ICF wall due to the air infiltration differences used in the study and the thermal mass effects. ICF wall assemblies have a superior base line. This study was conducted by a reputable 3rd party group, Construciton Technologies Laboratories (CTL). The Reward iForm has a steady state R-value of R-22. The study states what R-value or insulation would be required in a wood frame wall to have the same energy performance as the ICF wall in different climates given the differences of the stated air infiltration rates of each wall type. Any suggestions to the contrary are incorrect. I can be reached at 402-592-7077 if there are any questions. Thanks. Kelvin Doerr Engineering and Technical Services Reward Wall Systems, Inc.