What were the hangups with ICF consturction given your struc. engineering background?

Forming systems have NO "structural aspects" - thats why they are called FORMS.  The structural componant of the wall assembly is the combination of concrete and steel.

So I was sitting back hoping that one of the more experienced "ICF Guys" (One who is experienced with "TF" specifically) would get involved with this thread. This is probably the first thread on this forum that presents an opportunity, that I'm aware of, to compare the two "Vertical" ICF systems.

First, a question: how many people who want an ICF wall are going to settle for 2" of concrete in some areas of their walls?
(Maybe quite a few, and, if so, the subject system is probably a good option for them)

It seems to me that one of the primary reasons that people are willing to make the substantial extra investment to build with ICF's is for the extreme strength of concrete walls, with, typically 6" to 12" of concrete and steel ("TF" offers systems ranging from 4" to 24" in 2" increments) (Composit ICFs have their own "story" that suits many people)

In regards to R-Value, and thermal mass implications, TF offers their EPS panels in the following thicknesses: 2 1/2", 3", 3 1/2", and 4", with the option of using the same, or different, thicknesses for up to an R-32. (Frankly I'm not sure that we couldn't get a thicker foam panel, if some one really wanted it, something else to check into)

Now, I must admit that I haven't spent a great deal of time researching the website of this "other" vertical ICF system, so if they come back with information that shows that they offer all of the options that TF offers, plus their "variable thickness" concrete core, more power to them, maybe we'll slug it out to see who can dominate the "vertical" segment of the ICF market. Of course anyone who's interested, "Pros" or "Joes" could research the websites of these two manufacturers, and decide for themselves which of these systems, if either, might meet their specific requirements.

Now, I can't help but be aware of a number of ICF "pros" from California who are regular contributors on this forum, as well as more and more potential home owners. Also, who knows how many more "silent visitors" from both catagories, are monitoring this website every day? Having said that, I just wanted to offer up one more possible benefit of the TF ICF System for consideration. That is that not only do the foam panels ship flat for more cost effective shipping, but they also ship out of McCarren, Nv, not only reducing freight costs even further, but, for much of California (LA to Santa Rosa) could gain some LEED points for "proximity to the building site" (Less than 500 miles)

Ok, that's my pitch for tonight, we'll be happy to respond to email inquiries from anyone who's interested in learning more about TF, or you can find all of our firm's contact information in the "Professionals Directory" on this website. Also, TF will forward all factory direct inquiries to us from any location in California.

It is interesting how the 2 ' of concrete in the Hobbs system comes up. How strong does a wall have to be? The system is an engieered product so the variables of back fill hgt, soil conditions and above loads are all taken into account. The 2 " web section is only 11 " wide in between with a 5.25" x 4" column. There is also a modified contour panel that can be used instead if more concrete is needed. If more concrete is better, then a 7 " core is better than a 6" core. Where is the point of deminishing return with regard to concrete thickness?
The were flex tests done on the walls, by the U of Iowa ( Max Porter) so engineers will know the exact performance of the wall in relation to the above factors.
The owner of HOBBS is in Iowa (Urbandale)
I agree with an above comment about the diy use with ICF and Hobbs system does not react like the block ICFs. It pours like an poured wall, but it does go up with half the labour. I have installed both Amvic and Logix and there is no comparison on the time reduction. There will be a video on the new HOBBS web site showing just that. Two block installed against one HObbS installer side by side with the exact same wall.

it is good to see another Hobbs man here, but it is good to see other vertical wall men also. SoCAL Scott, I mhave now been involved in ICF's for about 10 yrs. I have seen a lot of "lego systems". I have used a lot of "lego systems". I have even used the TF system. In 34 + years I have seen a lot of concrete get real hard. Plywood, Simons, alum. pans. We have set gang forms and stacked them 30' high. Thousands of feet of formed wall. With all that said, Hobbs, with there post and beam system is the best. There is just nothing I would not tackle with this system. Every application is Engineered, and the ease of application is just unbelievable. If you used them one time, you would never go back. Oh yes, why in the heck would you buy 6" of concrete when 2" will work. Kinda loke useing a DE

Kinda like useing a D8 to push snow out of your drive....it will work, but look at the money you could have saved!

You never answered my question. I wasn't going to go here, but.........If you had read my post I didn't question the product, only your qualifications as an expert based on your earlier statements: "first I look at the structural aspects of a forming system" and "it took me several years to even look at a ICF"

These statements imply that even with your structural engineering background (what does "background" mean anyways?), it took you quite a while to fully grasp the concept of a concrete form that remains in place in order to insulate the wall.

4 years of engineering school, 20 + years of experience to that point. Parking garages, bridges, multistory buildings...to name a few. My concept of a lego block system made of EPS holding concrete ...... was just tough to see. I had poured more concrete at that point than most people drive in a lifetime. Call it what you may, It was hard to see that foam form holding up to the challenge. As time went on, and I tried some, most didnt. When I ran into the vertical form, and used it, it simplified so many items that the lego system didn't. Now the walls are straight, even, and no blow outs. On top of that Hobbs takes 1/2 the labor, 40% less concrete, and gives you a much better product.
I sure hope that answers your guestion....

I also like the vertical systems, but I would go with TF System as my choice of vertical. I like having the solid concrete wall. One thing to remember about thermal mass is if you have insulation on the inside you will lose most of the effect. One thing I never quite got is what the love with thick foam, from what I have gathered R-19 was set as the best bang for your buck in insulation. So with most foam giving about R-4.5 per inch 4 inches would be the best bargain. Don't get me wrong more is better. I was just throwing it out there. I dont want to ruffle feathers because most use 5" including the ICFs that I use.

I first came across icfs 10 yrs ago and back then there was BlueMax, RewardWall, and Polysteel, and a few others. Anyone who purchased any of these products and did proper installation did not have a problem with blowouts. It was the other p.o.s. systems that were out that were skimping on design so they could be the cheapest block on the....wait for it........"block" (like how I did that?). Most of you may remember our good ol buddy - phoenix icf - many a contractor bought in up front only to get left holding a wet bag of concrete. The quality forms have stood the test of time because they were designed well and continue to perform as expected in the field.

In your last post you wrote:
"Now the walls are straight, even, and no blow outs."

By saying this you are inferring that "block" forms do not lend themselves to achieving these same desired results.

Is that really what think or were you just subtly implying it and hoping no one would notice?

Yes Scott, you did read the post correctly. The next time you get a Load of block in, measure the units. See how many are the same size. We also used Phoenix, and Polysteel, and. several others. We had to use twice as much bracing, and reinforcement, especially in the corners. It got to be that we reinforced the corners with plywood on every job just for safety's sake. Now I know what you will say, we did this as labor and safety measure....I am not saying that we did it every time because we had trouble. This is why we are useing the HOBBS Vertical wall system. It needs less braceing, and stronger corners. It installs in 1/2 the time, and as a bonus, 40% less concrete. Have a nice day in sunny So. CA.

Why would you do it sometimes (scab the corners with plywood) and not others? doesn't really make sence. Were you only being "safe" some of the time and not others? I understand trying to prop up a particular product but when you use disinformation about other products and conflicting statements it only discredits the messenger.

If you notice, I haven't said anything positive or negative about hobbs in any of my posts, but in the mean time have put your statements into question each and every time you have posted a response. Maybe time for a new "spokesman"

Or perhaps a truthfull critic!

I went to the hobbsbuilding system web site and it doesn't really have much info there(is this the right web site?). It looks like the business just opened last year. I couldn't imagine a wall with just 2" of concrete!! I'm not an engineer but that just doesn't sound like enough for a wall at all to hold all of the load above.

Scott hit the blow out part on the head. I have used several different forms over the years and if you brace properly and know how to pour correctly, blow outs are rare on any of the top systems be it Reward, Logix, poly steel, Amvic, or TF System (I am sure we I missed a couple). One thing that would worry me is that waffle grid systems (such as Hobbs) are ban in a lot of areas. I know that some county's did not ban Hobbs specifically but waffle grids period. A waffle grid seams to have more opportunity for human error and would be prone to voids and other problems of getting concrete in all the little crevices. I am not saying that they can not be engineered to be as strong just seems like a lot of hassle and potential problems if every thing does not go right. I know when it comes to 4" walls with any re bar schedule they get harder to pour with out wetting the concrete, using SCC or fly ash.

If I were you, being in Central Iowa, I would visit Lite-Form and consider purchasing direct from the manufacturer. Lite-Form specializes in ICF manufacturing and is by far your most economic, highest performance ICF in my opinion. Visit http://www.flexxblock.com/index1.html for more information.

Aren't Lite Form and OC's Fold Form almost identical except in height 16" vs. 12"? 

Also might be cheaper if you need exactly one truckload for the project, but if you need extra pallets or less then truckload, the cost per form for shipping goes up:

** Truckload Quantities Only (Minimum 20 Pallets)
** Prices subject to change without notice. 
All sales final. No returns. Call for our ordering guidelines.
(taken from Lite Form website)

They do have the option to pick up, but then you still have to evaluate distance and quantity, and how similar it is with OC's product. And if you have left over product will they buy it back or are you stuck with trying to sell it or dump it.

All considerations that are below the surface of "our block cost $XX.XX"

I have used Both "OC", and LITE FORMS". OC was a disaster, Lite wasn't much better. Please remember this. I am not telling you not to buy other forming systems, just sharing my experiences. Some were good, some were bad. Over the years, I have settled on one system. It meets all of my needs. Thats why some drive Fords, Some Chevy's, some Dodge's. It is all about personal preference, and I prefer Hobbs Vertical wall System.

Seriously? are you paying for your advertisement space? If you haven't noticed most (I said MOST) people on here give opinions based on features of different form systems and don't blatantly advertise for a particular brand. Get a banner on the left of the page with Amvic, BB, FB, LF, & QL. No one wants to hear a sales spiel over and over again.

Well Scott, at least my profile isn't hiding what I do!

Would you guys quit being a bunch of twits.  Take it off the forum if you want to duke it out.  This "mine is bigger than yours" doesn't belong here.  Some people are trying to learn and share experiences.