ICF will out perform this system any day. There is no complete thermal break. It could also be out  performed wood framing as metal is a far worse conductor than wood.

The thermal mass in this system would not offset the thermal bridging, it will in fact probably add too it.

jmagill,

I designed and it was built a typical home of 3,500 SF, on the website it is the one with the gray siding that looks like every other home.  It has 9' to 15' ceilings. 3 people/2 women.

The 3,500 Full Sun - Summer High total energy bill was $185- that August.

The 3,000 SF neighbors house built by the same builder in conventional concrete block on the same 5 acre lot (with shade trees) It has 8' ceiling, 2 people/1 woman,  in the same month the total energy bill was $485- that August.

The difference was $300.00 for that month, typical % savings of all months.

The house is built exactly like you see on the website.

Let me ask you. Do you think more insulation is needed for this home?

Windows and doors along with how many times the doors open and shut along with how many times you take a hot bath or dry clothes is more Relevant, in my opinion, than adding more insulation in this home. 

In regards to energy for heating and cooling between ICFs and All Wall you will find "use of the home" will be the only noticeable difference in Energy use, and basically not calculable in real life terms.

There are other benefits that assist the home building process that you can get   from the link I posted comparing ICF construction to All Wall System construction.

I've built with both methods, designed (which means signed and sealed and became liable for, as professional engineer) both types of construction.  Both types of construction were installed with my same 'light gage steel roof truss' crew and there is not comparison in regards to the ease of construction based on time to erect, prepare for the pouring and the filling of the completed wall.
There are installation instructions in the Builders Link, the first item labeled Details, Specifications, etc. If you turn the pages to fast you can pass it. I know there is a long learning curve with applications in the field to be able to learn how to properly install ICFs. I was one of the first guys on board the ICF band wagon and was the first engineer in the highly regulated Broward County in So. FL to design, sign and seal, educate the building departments and then obtain the permit and build the first ICF home in Broward Co.  If anyone wanted ICFs to be the answer I did.  It just isn't as easy as I wanted.  The All Wall System is.  The installers don't even need a tape measure in the field, there are not openings to cut or open, etc.   

I try not to change topics, but I've been educating so many people and it is very hard to tell your level of understanding because I am not sitting beside you, or standing beside you on a job site.

Do you think more insulation is needed on the houses I've built that are operating full energy use at $0.027/SF in full sun Florida, versus the national average of $0.10/SF+ ?

I may as well address your other comment?
You are not providing a real CIC system. A real CIC system has an insulation layer between all interior and exterior surfaces.
    My question to you. Does a real ICF system have an insulation layer between all interior and exterior surfaces? Before you answer visualize windows and door openings.

I hate using R-Values since they are one component of determining energy savings, BUT, The best window has less than R-3, while ICFs and All Wall are in the high R(effective) 30's.  ONE 3'x3' window has more heat loss/ heat gain than the rest of the wall that the window is "installed in" does, when considering the wall is made either of ICF or All Wall System.  I've TRIED TO attached information available since the mid 70's about R-Values so you will understand why I do not value them much. Files were too big. Contact me thru the All Wall website and I'll send it to you.

I have attached pictures with some dialogue of the two story home in Gainesville, FL.  Notice the floor trusses are installed before the walls are filled, and notice the arched beams in the interior are installed in about 10 minutes each and filled without bracing in the middle. SAME HERE, THE FILE IS TOO BIG TO SEND.

Thank you for asking me questions and allowing me to answer them.

I have built two homes. One with SIPS. I have built those homes with my own labor. I have done everything from pouring the footers to putting on the roofing. I work in the home construction industry for a Construction/Excavation company that builds custom homes and commercial buildings.

Are you saying that R-value is irrelavant because you put windows and doors in the structure?

I don't need you email files. I am about to build my third home I have done the research. I don't need you to educate me, especially if you persit in using information for a CIC wall when that is not what you actally construct.

All Wall has thermal studs for Minnesota type areas. And we insulate the beams, headers and columns. All within the same ol' panel. Nothing different in regards to installation. My same comment applies without the studs in regards to windows. One window has more heat gain loss than the wall it is installed in. And opening the front door "to get in the house" is worse than 3 windows. I'm trying to paint a picture here, but I'm sure it will only create more questions.

But men, All Wall isn't going after any one. I was asked to respond to questions by a client, so I have. I was just having too much fun.

I agree with 'ICFconstruction.net', IF I was going after a building group it would be the group that has 85% of the market share, which would be wood framing, not the group with 3% and of that most of it is basements.

Thanks for your questions.

I'm expecting to see AllWallconstruction.net soon. :-) If I don't then Mr. ICFconstruction.net needs to change his website promise!!

Got to go drive to Texas from Florida. Don't abuse me too much while I'm gone.

Not trying to abuse you here, just trying to understand your product.

I like the idea of the concrete being on the inside, but I have not seen any details that show a completely insulated C-I-C wall assembly. 

And I believe everyone on this site understands that windows are a big part of the thermal envelope and that, yes, people will open doors.  But none of that addresses the lack of insulation at corners and tops of walls and posts.  And replying that the house preforms well so "why add more insulation?" and why add insulation to the wall if it has windows and doors is weak.   And your comment about not needing more insulation in walls that are not in the sun  shows a total lack of knowledge about building in cold climates.  So therefore my comment that this system MIGHT work in Florida.

I personally would not try to push a product on a forum of knowledgable professionals and then DODGE their questions.
 




 

That answer sir, is an insult.

Below is www.allwallsystem.com as I see with Firefox. Where is the Home Builder's Link? I sure don't see it there.

My Dear DEAR John;

I must thank you for your most amusing replys. Haven't had such a good chuckle since the Superior Walls forum. Maybe you two should get together and have a chat - seems that both of you have alot in common.

FYI - and to broaden you esteemed professional horizon; it might be worthwhile to take a lookse at the James Hardie board Forum way yonder in the General Residential Forum (that would be the one most visited - over 20,000 views), and maybe "educate" all of us as to the "Superior benefits" of using Hardie board below grade (or elsewhere for that matter).

You are ignoring the man's point: that insulation in the middle makes more sense than concrete in the middle in a large chunk of the US, and on many, if not most, houses designed for passive solar. Google the NAHB's zero energy house in Tucson. They built it with concrete block, for heaven's sake. They wanted the thermal mass where it should be, or exposed to the home's exterior.
Now you can quibble with the allwall approach. Does it have enough interior mass? What does it do that I couldn't replicate at less cost with a stick-built system of stay-in-place steel studs and high rib lath?
To attack the man's website and phony up comparisons with Hardieboard is nuts. (Believe me, Donnerwetter, there is no below grade where the man is from in South Florida.) The wood industry sticks together. What's with the tribalism in the concrete industry? You should offer an array of solutions rather than THE answer. You should cheer on folks like Superior and Allwalls who are attacking costs, which is the major problem.

You need to look at the system. He calls it a CIC system but it is not.

The insulation is only in part of the wall leaving great areas of unisulated wall. No one builds with that kind of system unless the wall is two feet thick.( and then only in the south)

NAHB's zero energy house in Tucson has insulation on the complete exterior.

I like the thermal mass properties of ICFs. Half the insulation is toward the climate controlled space which helps quick recovery and the other half outside the thermal mass to help moderate temperature swings. And you still have the thermal mass of a concrete floor to hold heat, with passive solar isn't that where the sun shines.

The number one reason I build with ICFs is strength. Take a cic wall with 6" of concrete, it won't be as strong as a 6" solid ICF wall.

The point of thermal mass is slowing and moderating interior temp swings and reducing the need for quick recovery. Internal insulation impededes this.

Sure interior insulation impedes the thermal mass effects, but it does not eliminate it. It also doesn't mean that adding insulation to the inside decreases the energy efficiency of the house. Like I said I like the quicker recovery that insulation provides.

That is like saying it is all right to have an ICF for with 1" of foam on each side when all the others have 2"

If I can build a wall with the same insulation and same thickness of concrete for the same price but one wall saves me on my heating and cooling bills why would I not go with that one?

No, it is not "like saying it is all right to have an ICF for with 1" of foam on each side when all the others have 2 inches". And I don't know how you got that.

"If I can build a wall with the same insulation and same thickness of concrete for the same price but one wall saves me on my heating and cooling bills why would I not go with that one?" There could be many reasons, what do you want to compare? A typical ICF to cic wall with consistant insulation and concrete?

No I would like to compare a CI wall to ICF.

I will be using TF's system. The insulation will be on the exterior, the inside will be MGO Board.

All the thermal mass I could want. All the insulation on the exterior where it will not impede.

The only reason I see for using a CIC system is if you have the concrete on the outside(no concrete board) and you therefore have a finished wall.

"The only reason I see for using a CIC system is if you have the concrete on the outside(no concrete board) and you therefore have a finished wall." I agree with you there, and most people would not think of exsposed concrete as an atractive finished wall.

Can you use the MGO board as the interior side of the form-work with the TF system? How will you install electrical, plumbing and trimwork?

"The cement board? 1/2" Hardie Backer Board (patent covers any cement board)"
"How about basements? YES"

Toddm - These are the direct quotes from John himself. I am still waiting for this response. Let me phrase the question in a more direct and simple fashion:

WHAT IS YOUR GARANTEE ON THE HARDIE BACKER BELOW GRADE?
WHAT GARANTEE DOES JAMES HARDEE GIVE IN THE USE OF THEIR PRODUCT IN YOUR APPLICATION (BOTH BELOW AND ABOVE GRADE)?

Here in Jackson WY, there are quite a few buildings with exposed concrete walls. They have been acid stained are a very nice choice.

Yes , we can use MGO, It has been done before and by at least one homeowner who uses this site. TF is actually working on a new way of using their system to do this. I am looking forward to seeing the info when it is available.

Electrical will be done before pouring for all exterior walls. Conduit most likely. A bit of extra planning but worth it in the long run. No plumbing in exterior walls just as with SIPS. I see no problem with trim etc. A multitude of ways and products that can accoplish this.

Jmagill; I agree with you 100%. Creating a "lop-sided" ICF such as the one you described has been used by us over the past 3 years. It has proven to be far superior to Hardie in all aspects. Was not aware however that TF was able to do this. If so may I offer my congrats to TF for their forward and progressive thinking. (since our system uses a concrete "dumbell" as our tie; MgO2 was a natural in the replacement of Interior drywall).

Guess now it becomes a price battle between us and TF :)

TF is going to take the ball and run with it, but it is enterprising homeowners who have done the research and have used the product in a non traditional way that are the inovaters.

It is the research and exchange on this very site that is the reason for the new use of an established product.