It's easy to plug a product when after exhaustive research and real world experience one comes to the conclusion that they have chosen the best, most innovative system on the market. I can see people being loyal to a product but if you don't constantly question your methods and choices you will still be listening to 8 tracks while the rest of us are on Blue Ray.

It's not a stretch and what the components are made of doesn't matter. I don't care what a TGI is made of as long as I have a reliable expectation ( proven through research and testing) that the TGI will span the lengths I want. The bottom line is the spans are not only greater but unreachable using dimensional lumber.
As far as your statement regarding engineering, you may or may not be right, but the difference is every Hobbs Vertical Wall System is engineered as part of the product ( every time )and Nudura's is not. Nudura users rely on prescriptive tables and unless they go the extra step of having the design engineered they leave themselves open to liability if they make a mistake in interperting the tables.
By posting on this forum you show yourself to be a forward thinking kind of person. Remember if your just looking at cost of ICF material you are not looking at total cost and the time saved which you can use to go on to your next ICF job.

Gary,
If you look at the Nudura tables you would see that they are all stamped by an engineer. Nudura has probably one of the best engineering teams out there. It they do not have the it in their engineered stamped drawings then they will draw it up for you and get it stamped. Once it is engineered stamped it is stamped. Their is no liability issues. No matter who's wall it is Hobbs or Nudura or any other ICF who uses Stamped drawings. It then is up to the installers to make sure that it is installed the way the engineer intended.
As far as tying Hobbs, I looked into them and got quotes for Hobbs and two other ICF's. I am sending the Hobbs quote to the Hobbs North American Sales Manager for him to look at. When It was apples to apples, wall up and poured, Hobbs was more expensive. Now please keep in mind that I was using labor numbers that reflect my crews installing TF (which is what my crews are fastest at) for numbers. I am figuring that the install time very is similar. If one is faster than the other it would not be by much. I am more than game to try new stuff that is how I got into ICF's to began with. I would try Hobbs on a future project if they are cost effective on that specific project.
I guess I better quit messing around on my computer and get out to the site and see how the guys are doing.

TD,

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not knocking Nudura or their tables. I could not imagine them using anything but competent engineers. Can you have other block mfg's design and seal plans? Yes you can. Unfortunately most people do not and they rely on the tables. No matter how professional the tables are, if the person interpretating them is not an engineer, then that person is assuming the liability for the interpretation.
As to your second comment The Hobbs Vertical Wall System is much more than it's components. The closest analogy I can think of is UPS. UPS has for years employed armies of industrial engineers doing time studies with the sole purpose of saving seconds on each procedure every employee performs. If an installer follows the Hobbs Methodology they will achieve similar results. People such as yourself that are knowledgeable and passionate about what they do are just the type of installer / dealer we need. Your type of person can truly see how remarkable the system is.

There it is! I figure that you were a distributor for Hobbs but now you proved it. I sure hope you have a better sales pitch that "if it is good enough for UPS its good enough for you" with you customers. If want to sell your product put an ad on the side of the page. This forum is for contractors and homeowners to discuss experiences. When manufacturer and distributors get involved they start with the whole mine is bigger than yours. Most distributors at least come out and say who they are and most manufacturers reserve posting for technical reasons. Please keep in mind that this only my opinion and maybe other feel different. I for one have some respect for Joe who contacted me from Hobbs but he did it discreetly through a PM to talk with me about the advantages of his product.

I think if you are choosing a product to use the first time the distributor/trainer is quite important. Can they meet your schedule or do they put you back a week? Are the shipping costs reasonable? For a waffle grid system, do they let you know how to calculate the amount of concrete needed? Do they ship the proper amount of material sized correctly for the job? Do they promise to send auxiliary material but then they never send it?

These kind of things are quite important and might influence which product you end up choosing or what product you might recommend to someone else.

Hi, I'm new on here and have been doing blocks for a while, am talking to both Hobbs and TF about their walls. Hobbs is being sued I'm told by TF so that kinda takes them outta the picture as far as im concerned even if I thought Hobbs had a better system which I don't. I'm wanting to hear from some people who have handson experience (the more the better)  with TF. They're normal webbs are 1' apart, how much does the final product bulge in between the webs?  Most blocks webbing is 6-8" apart. What are the cons of vertical ICF? Are their any? It looks like a really good product and I'm gonna be using very soon on more than just one project I'm sure, if its all its cracked up to be.

We just finished up a pretty complex pour for an ICF basement on our new house in Downers Grove, IL. Todd at TF was excellent in helping on the initial product list, but we didn't get everything together until the last minute when he put us in touch with Bob Orlof of Planet Build, Inc.  Bob does nothing but ICF basement and buildings and is so knowledgeable on how effectively construct a job that his prices come very close to conventional concrete plus finishing out the exterior walls of the house. The TF System product is nice. They have gone to 8" spacing of the studs so a stud will land on 16" center so all trades people are happy.  We had a high pour without a sign blow out.

If I get a chance, I wiii post some pictures.

-Joe kasko

I had a 2 hour conversation with TF last night and yes they are offering a new 8" spacing on their webs instead of the old 12". Having said that the 8" system is made outta 1.5 lb nominal density foam vs the the 2 lb density foam which also has a higher R value, I like the fact I can offer homeowners more than just one option as many are looking to go with the cheaper route. With our temperatures we have in the northern half of Canada though I can also see many people going with the thicker foam. -45 is just a wee bit chilly never mind setting up and pouring walls in those temps, which has happened for a few of us die hards lol. Bottom line TF is going to be my supplier I'm sure unless I hear some very negative feedback from someone. Hobbs never even got back to me until I sent them a second email, a rather curt one I might add asking them if they wanted my business and by that time I was having an good dialogue with TF and I still havent even heard so much as a peep from Hobbs, and its been 3 weeks since they said they would get back to me with some pricing. I've pretty much given up on them, I won't chase anybody down(unless they owe me money lol)looking to use their product. Sounds to me like Hobbs has got some management issues and needs some better salesmanship providing they're allowed to continue manufacturing their product after their done in court with TF.

How far north RU in Canada.

How far north RU in Canada.

There's an implication or two that a few of you guys have installed horizontal and you are moving now to vertical. I am keeping an open mind but do not see it. Perhaps you could explain. Regards.

Posted By TexasICF on 01 May 2010 05:27 PM
There's an implication or two that a few of you guys have installed horizontal and you are moving now to vertical. I am keeping an open mind but do not see it. Perhaps you could explain. Regards.

I have only researched vertical but if you have any faith in science and inventors, and are into history, TF started as a block system ... saw the flaws in that concept .... and moved to vertical to emulate the traditional concrete forming system.  While there are other vertical systems (with some potential technical issues), there are some excellent advantages to TF. 

1st - I'm sure the ALL vertical systems are significantly better than conventional construction. However, you might check out the other 95% or so of the ICF market. I'd rather not comment on the science and invention and history etc. but what flaws do you refer to exactly?? And why might one want to emulate traditional forming? - which by the way is not vertical at all -- either unless you are referring to tilt-up which is another animal entirely. And finally what are these excellent advantages you are referring to. Regards.

It appears that you haven't looked at the installation manuals Texas.

TF can be set up from standing on the ground, without scaffolding (as is traditionally formed concrete). Also, you can set up the outside of the form and leave the inside off (as is traditionally formed concrete). To that level of comparison, I call that very similar to traditional forming. After all, what you are forming in any kind of ICF system is not the blocks or vertical system, the result desired is a combination of CONCRETE AND REBAR, and not how, or with which product you made it stand up until it hardens.

As to other vertical systems, in my location where soil & frost pressures are important, a system like Hobbs with no horizontal reinforcement (other than the top and bottom) makes engineers run away very quickly.

My thoughts are that rather than question the words and concepts, look at the installation manuals and draw your own conclusion. Anyone looking for any sort of clear and perfect answer ... church may be your only . If there is another system which allows you to split the panels and lift them up like a sash window while you pour each of the 4 foot lifts, then I am unaware of those systems.

There are inherent floating and compressing issues with block systems that cannot occur with TF, and Hobbs and these two don't need scaffold to assemble. Because you have to screw each row of blocks to the scaffold should imply that keeping them straight. The stud system of TF and whatever Hobbs uses are about the same as assembling a metal stud wall where the studs keep the wall straight.

All systems have inherent flaws and procedural differences. Perfection MAY come in the next life so, on earth, you just need to weigh the labor and technical procedures required when you compare blocks vs vertical systems and decide which system is your preference.

I'm in the northern prairies of Canada, as for the fellow who was asking what advantages vertical icf has, you can't have poured much for block walls, although you can safeguard against floating and or compression issues with a block wall it can be somewhat labour intensive. Also with a block wall after you have your wall up 5-6 feet you need to put up your bracing and scaffolding after which someone neeeds to constantly pass up block or someones always climbing up and down a ladder and with vertical icf that is eliminated beacause each panel is full height. block walls are simply more labour intensive, harder to keep level at the top and take more time, TF has a wonderful comparison on their website, experienced crews vs non experienced crews setting up their walls, if their is any one crew that can set up a 170 linear feet of wall in a day to full height than I want to see it lol, its not impossible but you wont be doing that with an ordinary 2-3 man crew, with TF you can pre panelize off or onsite, lets say its raining and you cant work onsite well, you take your  tf components and go into your shop and panelize as much as you want, installing window bucks as well, when you get onto site you're essentially erecting x amount of feet at a single time as you stand each panelized section you made in your shop. That is virtually impossible to do with ANY block system that I'm aware of. Also if you need access to the bottom of your wall (dropped tool) all you do is lift the panel up, same goes for rebar access for uprights. ALL uprights should always be tied into the rest of the rebar grid, thats extremely hard to do with a block as each block would have to be slid down over top of the upright, what a gigantic waste of time! Yes I put my uprights in after I pour as well, not because I want to but because Thats the only way you can be efficient at it Again I've yet to use TF but I will be very shortly, all Ican say for the time being is that if what I see and hear about TF is true(ill know on my first couple walls) ALL that I will be using is TF and thats a guarenteed thing!

The Northern prairies is a very large area ... what town/city are you located?

TEXAS ICF, I've been doing concrete commercial and residential for 10 yrs, I've yet to see any forming system that wasn't vertical examples are duraform and stripease. Not saying that it doesn't exist though just that I've never seen it get used aside from a residential grade beam on piles.

Gnubeebuilder, I'm not about to say where I live or work on here. I'm fairly new on here and if we can chat somewhere in private different story, they have a private messaging system on here?