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Vertical ICF
Last Post 04 May 2010 09:50 PM by TF System. 49 Replies. |
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ColoICF
New Member
Posts:34
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| 01 May 2010 07:03 PM |
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Hi GnuBee.
I have worked with many conventional wall systems, and many ICFs over the last 45 years.
I have read a lot about the vertical ICFs but haven't had an opportunity to work with them. Since we often experience high winds on our Colorado job-sites, I would not be inclined to erect a wind "sail" without considerable bracing, regardless of technology used. This is an advantage of horizontal forms: you can erect a lot of wall before you get into the "sail" portion of the wall, by which time you usually want bracing and scaffolding anyway, just so that you can safely work at the top of the wall; safety before system isn't a bad mantra.
About seven years ago I stumbled across NUDURA forms which entirely do away with your floating and compression concerns. There are other decent horizontal forms. You might want to do some research in this arena instead of limiting yourself to vertical only; good surprises sometimes reward the diligent.
Cheers,
FM |
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Hard workin man
New Member
Posts:8
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| 01 May 2010 07:04 PM |
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GnuBeeBuilder just sent you a private message, we can discuss it further through pm. |
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Joseph Farella
New Member
Posts:57
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| 01 May 2010 07:10 PM |
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There is no truth whatsoever, of any lawsuits against the Hobbs VICF by the TF company. If anyone would have firsthand knowledge of this fact, it would be me. The only possible participants in a court case related to these two companies, could be the TF distributor, who seems to have expressively stated or implied this to be fact, to Hard working man, and the Hard working man if he continues to defame Hobbs in this form ,with his libellous statements. Todd Delbreau , currently an employee of the TF system, previously made a similar claim on this form. He was asked to have TF substantiate the claim and they did not, for the simple reason that there is no fact or merit to it. Both VICF systems would be a good choose to use anywhere in Northern Canada. In Saskatchewan for example, where it gets really cold, ICF construction is the only way to go. In order for the building experience to end favourably for the consumer, he, the installer and the distributor must be of like minds and convictions, if they are to work together successfully. When an ICF distributor or installer chooses to defame or run down a competitor with unsubstantiated claims, to justify to his customer, their choice, this usually serves as a prelude to how the rest of the job is going to go. If you are unhappy with your perceived treatment from Hobbs, then TF would be an excellent choice for you. I hope that you would be as efficacious in your reply when you find out the true facts from your TF distributor, as you have been against the Hobbs product. |
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GnuBeeBuilder
New Member
Posts:14
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| 01 May 2010 07:16 PM |
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Posted By ColoICF on 01 May 2010 07:03 PM
Hi GnuBee.
I have worked with many conventional wall systems, and many ICFs over the last 45 years.
I have read a lot about the vertical ICFs but haven't had an opportunity to work with them. Since we often experience high winds on our Colorado job-sites, I would not be inclined to erect a wind "sail" without considerable bracing, regardless of technology used. This is an advantage of horizontal forms: you can erect a lot of wall before you get into the "sail" portion of the wall, by which time you usually want bracing and scaffolding anyway, just so that you can safely work at the top of the wall; safety before system isn't a bad mantra.
About seven years ago I stumbled across NUDURA forms which entirely do away with your floating and compression concerns. There are other decent horizontal forms. You might want to do some research in this arena instead of limiting yourself to vertical only; good surprises sometimes reward the diligent.
Cheers,
FM
Yes, I have seen that system and do know what you say to be technically correct due to the way the cross bracing system actually touches each other from row to row. I have also been helping on a pour where the 3/4 aggregate in the concrete was breaking those plastic cross braces, and the NuDURA has stronger looking webs than some of the others I have seen (but not been at a pour). As to the sail problem ... the same bracing system can be used with the vertical systems if wind is an issue. As an alternate, temp wooden braces every 10 feet do the same as the bracing system every 6 feet (but without the rental costs). Yes, one has to have an open mind and be thoughtful when applying your own individual situations to these systems. For example, TF has a termite proof product with Borax in it that I haven't heard of in other systems (not to say I have reserched them all). |
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Hard workin man
New Member
Posts:8
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| 01 May 2010 07:27 PM |
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Mr Farella, I bear you no ill will, you may be right, Im simply repeating what I was told by TF's office. Having said that my personal PERCEIVED experience with hobbs has not been very fruitful AT ALL! I'm not in the habit of chasing down people that dont reply to my emails when I'm looking to use their product. I don't mean to offend you, but I was very patient in waiting on a response from hobbs BEFORE i ever found or contacted TF! TO THIS DAY i am still waiting on a quote from one of your distibutors in western canada, that was 3 weeks ago and I still have nothing! as far as i'm concerned this has nothing to do with tf bashing hobbs, they would never have had the chance to bash hobbs if hobbs had gotten back to me in a timely manner. tf quoted me materials for the first job im trying with them THE DAY AFTER I CONTACTED THEM and sent them a print. you tell me,if you were in my shoes would you still want to deal with hobbs when you are being treated very well by tf? their lines of communication are open and quite good at a timely response to any inquiries that i've made. Thanks good luck and have a good day! |
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Joseph Farella
New Member
Posts:57
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| 01 May 2010 08:00 PM |
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I like your term wind"sail". In the Hobbs VICF ,you put up the corners and tees first, then you build the wall assembleys, full height, complete with the window or door bucks, rebar and foam on the ground, and then install them where they are marked on the plans. I usually have one man build these first on site, or off site, if their is adverse weather. There is no more bracing required to hold the foam around the bucks as it has been incorporated around the bucks with the furring assembleys. This is particulary usefull on the second and third levels where there is usually lots of openings and the wind is more of a factor. If the wind is a major issue, then the top whaler can be installed at the top of the wall, connecting the full height corners and the full height wall opening assembleys. If the wind conditions warrant, every 16" the full height furing asembleys can be srewed to the top whaler, negating the effects of the wind ,not to create a wind "sail as you put it. Also each furring assembley has a full height rebar pre-loaded in it. Usually it is a No. 5 bar, depending on what the engineer states needs to be using in the job specific shop drawings, giving the wall unit weight and rigidity. Since the system is full height you can install the braces and scaffolding as you go if the conditions dictate. Vertical systems do not float or compress due to the nature of their design, so the brace is really their for alignment purposes, and for somewhere to hang the scafflolding off of. No need to worry about where you place the srew in the sloted area of the brace either. Vertical ICF forming is a really safe way to work,especially since you are not up on the scaffold being handed up foam and rebar, especially in windy conditions. |
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Joseph Farella
New Member
Posts:57
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| 01 May 2010 08:49 PM |
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If one does not get the percieved service that they expect ,then of course they will look elsewhere, just as you have done. I must admit that I am rather distrubed that you claim to be repeating what you were told by the TF office, as once again I will state for the record, that there is absolutlely no merit or truth behind what TF is telling you.
I would appreciate that when you find out the truth that you let everyone on this form know about it.
I empathize with you having been put in this postion to defend your intergrity because you belived what your TF distributor told you to be true.
If this TF office that you speak of ,has an ounce of intregrity, I would hope that they will set the record straight with you and anyone else that they have been spreading this bull to.
I find it a sad state of affairs when TF needs to resort to this, in order to sell their system. You would think that your experience alone would be all they need. They should be able to sell there system on their merits alone rather than resoting to making false statements about Hobbs. It makes me wonder what they are saying about other the other ICF systems out there.
We don't do buisness that way at Hobbs.
But, having said that ,having to wait an inordinate amount of time for a adequate responce ,is no way to secure buisness either.. I can assure that this is not how the distrubtor you refer to ,usually conducts buisness and that your experince is not the norm.
I wish you well on your install and I apologize for the inconvience. |
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Spencer
New Member
Posts:36
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| 02 May 2010 10:14 PM |
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Hard workin man, visit http://www.pathnet.org/sp.asp?id=21965 to see how Arxx Steel (formerly known as Polysteel) has been used for several years to create panelized walls for projects. Arxx Steel is a block form. Not only were the walls for this particular project panelized block forms, they were panelized at a shop in Minnesota and transported to the project in Omaha. These were set in place beginning at 8 AM and concrete started pouring into them at 3 PM. There are other block form ICF projects out there that have utilized panelization to construct their walls. Please take time to really learn the facts about all ICFs. |
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Grizz
New Member
Posts:9
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| 03 May 2010 12:59 AM |
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I looked at the pathnet site. 7 hours to set the wall sounds good, but why would anybody want to have the block delivered to one site. Take them out of the semi and put them together. Load a truck back up. Haul it from Minn to Omaha. Unload the truck and go to work again. I wonder why they didn't have the truck show up at noon after the footings were set and poured. Then maybe spend an extra hour or two installing it on site without the extra time to handling, and extra trucking involved.
Just wondering |
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TF System
New Member
Posts:4
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| 04 May 2010 09:50 PM |
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Joe,
Before I went to work for TF System, I posted regularly on this site. As I have stated I believe this is a site for home owners and contractors, thus i have not posted since I became employed by TF. Now with that in mind..... I never stated that TF was suing Hobbs, if you look back I stated that I thought that they should. That was just my opinion at the time. I can not speak for the owners of TF and speculate on what their take on this is.
With that I can say this; TF is loving all the advertising Hobbs is doing. It promotes the vertical ICF concept and its advantages. We also have started to advertise more to keep the momentum moving. TF System prides its self on its cutting edge system and its outstanding customer service. Most of our business is from word of mouth, and we believe this is some of the best advertising. Our clients demand fast service, superior product and our technical expertise to give them the advantage over their competitors. That is what we give them. That is the reason why TF hires contractors on its staff with ICF experience whom can answer any of the tough questions.
I know from past conversations that we both believe that ICF is the way to build and that we both believe that vertical is a faster more versatile ICF.
Todd |
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