Let me start by saying a big Thank You to everyone that posts replies in this forum, I've been lurking for about a month and have learned quite a bit.  We are getting ready to start construction and after getting a chance to see both a completed home and a basement being constructed we have opted to build our home w/ ICFs.  We are doing quite a bit of the work ourselves but will be contracting the ICF portion out to a local contractor.  The home we are building is in Michigan, so far the land has been graded and they start excavation next week.

I have a couple of concerns/ questions that I would really appreciate input on.

1.  I've heard it's easiest/cheaper to have walls that are continuous, going from foundation through to the second floor rather than exterior walls that are further into the structure for the second floor for load bearing reasons.  Is this a big deal and if so is it best to modify the plans to accommodate this?

2.  The garage on our home will be attached, but not under a finished space.  Is it common to build these walls with ICFs as well?  The interior wall of the garage shared with the house will be built w/ ICFs.

3.  I don't plan to finish the basement for quite a while, is it acceptable to leave the ICFs exposed or do they need to be covered to get occupancy?

I did try to search but didn't find info on these, if they have been answered before I apologize for posting them again.

Thanks for your time!

The Nutter home in Ohio needed to have their basement drywalled to get occupancy. Their blog is a great read
http://www.nutterresidence.blogspot.com/

Thanks, I've continued my search and did find another post talking about drywalling the basement as well.  I left a message at the building inspector's office hoping to have these questions addressed directly, just wanted to get some feedback from what others have dealt with.

I also found that blog extremely interesting, I'm no where near finished with it yet.

Posted By mike597 on 10 Nov 2011 04:17 PM
Let me start by saying a big Thank You to everyone that posts replies in this forum, I've been lurking for about a month and have learned quite a bit.  We are getting ready to start construction and after getting a chance to see both a completed home and a basement being constructed we have opted to build our home w/ ICFs.  We are doing quite a bit of the work ourselves but will be contracting the ICF portion out to a local contractor.  The home we are building is in Michigan, so far the land has been graded and they start excavation next week.

I have a couple of concerns/ questions that I would really appreciate input on.

1.  I've heard it's easiest/cheaper to have walls that are continuous, going from foundation through to the second floor rather than exterior walls that are further into the structure for the second floor for load bearing reasons.  Is this a big deal and if so is it best to modify the plans to accommodate this?

Others with more experience can give a more solid answer I'm sure. But from the perspective of having designed and built my own 1 story ICF house, and being an engineer, I would say it definitely is more complicated. I'd go with straight walls and add some sort of fake trim to create a break if that's what you want for looks.

2.  The garage on our home will be attached, but not under a finished space.  Is it common to build these walls with ICFs as well?  The interior wall of the garage shared with the house will be built w/ ICFs.

Common? I don't know but I built my garage with ICF for a couple reasons. I avoided the hassle of joining a frame wall to the ICF wall, although that should not be a big deal. Mostly I did it because I want to use the garage as a workshop in the winter. It heats up fairly soon with the pellet stove, and stays at about 55F when there is no heat. It did drop under 50F when we a string of below zero nights.

3.  I don't plan to finish the basement for quite a while, is it acceptable to leave the ICFs exposed or do they need to be covered to get occupancy?

I did try to search but didn't find info on these, if they have been answered before I apologize for posting them again.

Thanks for your time!

International Residential Code doesn't allow exposed styrofoam in an area that is considered part of the living space. An unfinished basement is part of the living space. In my case my crawl space is part of the living space because I use it for the heating system air supply plenum. Drywall just happens to be the cheapest fire resistant covering available. It specifically is not required, but a fire resistant covering is. The BI quite possibly will allow you to leave it untaped.

2. The garage on our home will be attached, but not under a finished space. Is it common to build these walls with ICFs as well? The interior wall of the garage shared with the house will be built w/ ICFs.

All of the big ICF builds I have looked at have ICF garages as well. However, I think they all had heated garages and from the sizes, saving money on the garage portion obviously wasn't a factor. If you are only using ICF for the thermal efficiency and plan to have an unheated garage, then I see no need to make the garage ICF. You could probably save some money there.

If you are accustomed to having a home with an unheated garage and you do the same thing when you build with ICF, you may end up with having a garage that is too cold because it is thermally isolated from the home. Depending on the severity of your climate, you may experience freezes in the garage. That would be undesirable. You also want to consider insulation in the floor of any rooms that are actually over the unheated garage.

I did my garage with ICF because it's heated.

My (unfinished) basement foam is exposed. It was never mentioned by my building inspector, thankfully.

Mike597;
We are a Michigan ICF installation specialist, and have done over 105 since 2004. I would be happy to have a look at your plans to make suggestions for you. We likely have some builds not too far from you that would be available for you to tour as well.
Here are my answers to your questions.
1) It is not so much a matter of ease, because we find ICF's to be quite flexible and for the most part easier than poured walls. The question is more in what purpose do you see in those walls. If you don't need the structural capacity, sound resistance, fire resistance, or thermal efficiency of ICF; then it is not money well spent.
2) It is uncommon to build these in ICF, we usually frame garage walls. On the other hand, those we have built in ICF are reported to keep quite warm without supplemental heat. The answer to this will ultimately depend upon your desired usage of the garage.
3) We have never had a project that did not need to be covered in drywall, even though the code could be interpreted to allow it uncovered as long as there is a fire rated door between the basement and living spaces. It would be wise to plan on the expense.
Feel free to contact me if I can be of any further help!
Jake Vierzen
R-Value Concrete Structures LLC
616.299.3654
[email protected]

rvalue hit the nail on the head.

- If you have an installer that is familiar with ICF's the possibilities are as close to endless as it gets, same goes for your engineer and architect.

- Build the garage out of ICF, if this is your first ICF house the difference from stick built is night and day. The first cold day that you leave your warm cozy icf house and go out to your ice box garage you will kick yourself for saving a few bucks by not going the extra mile and doing the garage too. Don't skimp on the garage doors either... Warm car in Feb = happy wife!!

- Exposed foam must be covered except in an crawl space that is not used for any sort of hvac air supply. Explore the alternative wall coverings widely used on icf's such as Gigacrete etc. you may be excited at what you find!

Good luck!

Icf Hybrid,
Your statement on the freezing ICF garage is completely untrue.
I do have an attached ICF garage to my ICF house and no freezing.
Ground always being at 55 deg. not insulating the floor might be considered if a non heated garage is the route taken by the owner.

Wasn't done construction when winter hit us. Only had a tyvek in the gar. door opening (facing east) with -30's and never did it freeze in there.

Cheers!

Your statement on the freezing ICF garage is completely untrue

I think you misunderstood. I was referring to non-ICF garages connected to an ICF home and it wasn't a statement of fact, it was a warning about what might happen in certain situations.

My appologies. I did in fact misunderstand.

Thanks everyone for the input, I'm making pretty good progress.  Yesterday I met with the ICF contractor- turns out after reviewing the prints together he can do the main floor without any changes.  He is going over his numbers again and will include the garage all the way up to the gables.  After that I went to the Inspector's office for the township and talked with them, they said the basement and main floor are fine, no worries at all on that.  The only area they couldn't give me a firm answer on is the second floor where some of the exterior walls will be changed, so I am also waiting on updated truss info from the supplier so I can submit that for approval again.

My concern for the garage being done in ICF was for the spans over the doors, one door is 9'x7', the other is 16' x 7'.  He says that span is no problem and is done routinely.  I plan to install radiant heat and wanted the garage finished as well with a heated slab so this might work out quite well.

I am now working to plan as many of the wall penetrations as possible, especially the larger ones for boiler/furnace exhaust as well as plumbing.  I have no problem drilling smaller holes in concrete but trying to hog through a 5" hole would suck (concentric vent kits).  At the same time I'm also trying to plan for the future, so I am working to lay out the chase where conduits can go to run the wiring for PV panels.

While writing this I received an email with the info for my floor trusses, one step closer!

Just need to submit a site plan and I'm off to the races! (waiting on the surveyor now, was hoping to draw it myself to be done quicker).

Mike, your installer is correct -- these openings are routine.

Posted By mike597 on 16 Nov 2011 11:35 AM I am now working to plan as many of the wall penetrations as possible, especially the larger ones for boiler/furnace exhaust as well as plumbing.  I have no problem drilling smaller holes in concrete but trying to hog through a 5" hole would suck (concentric vent kits).  At the same time I'm also trying to plan for the future, so I am working to lay out the chase where conduits can go to run the wiring for PV panels.

Avoid the drilling as much as possible. It's a pain. Any place you think you might need a penetration in the future just put in a piece of PVC or ABS pipe through the block, sizing it large enough for most any eventuality. Then fill it with foam, document it's location with photos and tape measure, and cover it up on both sides. I put in several and sure enough, a few months later I needed to use one. Of course it was the one that I had failed to accurately document and so had to some poking through the drywall till I found it! I had one photo during construction that gave me a real good idea where to poke!

Dropped off the last of the requested forms this morning with the township.  A little concern popped up when the lady said there was a note that the building inspector wanted to talk to me about where I planned to use the ICFs but unfortunately he wasn't in the office yet and I had to get to work.  Hopefully there isn't going to be a problem with the township already- we haven't even started yet.  I have a meeting with him Monday morning, hopefully it goes good!

As for the holes through the walls, I do plan to map out the walls (especially the utility coom) and set up PVC chases for A/C line-sets, exhausts, utility feeds, etc.  Lots to consider and no matter how much I plan I'm sure I will miss at least one.

Hi folks - just wanted to tack on to this discussion since it relates to some questions I have as well regarding a framed garage on and ICF home....

----I'm designing mine right now (ranch with basement) and I was wondering what the best way to do that is? Specifically:
----If drywall since it is in the garage, then what about the point where the two perpendicular walls of the garage "touch" the house? Would you put drywall behind the studs or put a sheet of OSB on either side that is attached to the ICF part?

----The roof will be common and continuous over the house and garage (and so the footings will all be continuous as well). Do you usually put OSB or drywall up in the rafters to separate the attic above the house from the part of the garage? Basically I'm asking if it is a good idea to extend the common wall between the garage and house all the way up to the roof?

----Do you usually put building wrap on the garages when they are framed? Do you continue the building wrap on to the ICF wall (a little bit of an overlap), and if so how much?

----Do you make sure that the top plate of the garage walls is at the same height as the sill plate on the 1st floor concrete walls? I was thinking to recess the sill plate on top of my concrete walls a little so that the ceiling joists will be right at the height of the foam at 8-foot (so that my walls wouldn't be 8-foot high concrete with an additional 2x6 sill plate) and then I have trouble with dry-wall and insulation at the sill plate since the wall is just a little taller than 8-foot.
I appreciate any help!

JPJ you should research ICF coatings, especially ones that do not use drywall, Our PlasterMax is fireresistant , mold resistant and much more. If you would like sample of it, email me [email protected] Good luck on your project.

Actually - I forgot to ask if I need to frame the back wall of the garage for shear support, or if I can just attach the side walls to the footings and then count on the rafters for the shear support?

Thanks!

I have no problem drilling smaller holes in concrete

3/4" Schedule 40 PVC conduit can be done with a 1-1/8" masonry bit on a hammer drill. If you want penetrations for 1" PVC conduit and larger, you need to have a minimum 1-3/8" masonry bit, which gets quite a bit more difficult to come by.

I am working to lay out the chase where conduits can go to run the wiring for PV panels

If you are going vertical, it is easy enough to get even 2" conduit into the foam of the wall and up into the overhead structure just like any other service. If you need to penetrate concrete, then you are back to looking at the 3/4" vs 1" conduit issue. We found that 1" conduit was a bit more suitable for our PV wiring than the 3/4", although it could be done with either.

If you have solar hot water panels, we found that even insulated linesets in 1/2" and 5/8" flex pipe could go up the foam of the wall with ease. They are 2" in one direction and 4" in the other so we just laid them flat. In one case, we needed to run 4 in one place and slipped a beveled board down the ICF wall before the pour to make a bit deeper chase which we pulled out later. You might want to do the same for any place 3" DWV or waste pipes are running vertical.

Other items we sleeved or boxed out before the pour were;

1. Electrical Service Entrance (4" for 3" PVC conduit)
2. Heat Pump Linesets (4" for 3" PVC conduit)
3. Potable water (2")
4. Rain cistern water (2")
5. Irrigation or well water (2" - made 2 holes, one for bringing it in and one for going back out)
6. Drain, Waste (Sewer - if you sleeve for 4" PVC potable, the holes will be big enough for that and 4" waste pipe - make 2 holes - one for exit and one for clean out access on the nearest high side that is in line with the main run)
7. Outbuildings (for 2" PVC conduit)
8. Vents - Foundation, basement, HRV, etc.

We missed a few before pouring and had to call the concrete coring outfit in, which was a real shame, (except from their point of view).

Posted By jpj on 22 Nov 2011 10:41 AM

----The roof will be common and continuous over the house and garage (and so the footings will all be continuous as well). Do you usually put OSB or drywall up in the rafters to separate the attic above the house from the part of the garage? Basically I'm asking if it is a good idea to extend the common wall between the garage and house all the way up to the roof?

Codes require you to have a fire resistant barrier between the house and garage. Usually that is 5/8" drywall if you have a frame wall between the two. If you have an ICF wall between then that is the fire barrier. You can run the wall up to the roof with the drywall covering it, or you can put the fire barrier drywall on the garage ceiling. Ceiling is probably the most common, but that's because there's often a room above the garage as part of the living space. I framed a wall above the ICF to the roof w/ 5/8" drywall. It was less area than the garage ceiling, and I use the garage attic space for storage, not living space.

All penetrations for wiring, pipes, and ducts, in the wall between the house and garage must be sealed tight with fire resistant material. That's usually foam.