I will be back tonight and will take a pic of the chainsaw, works great blowing right through the ties. The hot wire worked great for cutting out boxes but really struggled when I would get to the ties, so I switched back and forth. To appease the inspector I used a 2" hole-saw to cut a hole in the foam, then I'd snap that piece out, drill a tapcon and mount the wire to the wall using wireties with eyes. Quite the process, but the inspector passed us. I think it was the first ICF house he has seen.

As for the ICF company, they claim to have been doing this since 2004 and had quite a few pictures of homes they had built. They were by far the worst part of the process, just glad we are done with them .

For windows, we went with Serious Glass 8 series windows. Their sliding glass doors are awful, 2 came to the house and after 4 hours of trying to figure out how to assemble the frames and get them installed I told the carpenter to send them back. The windows have a .19 U value on operable windows, .16 on fixed windows, I have the R values somewhere around here. While the numbers are really impressive along with the 2 different gases used, I have to say I'm not at all impressed with the way they come out and the way they are installed. All windows from them are "replacement" windows even if on a new home, so the mounting tabs come separate and have to be snapped in and while I couldn't pull any back out they seemed loose to me. After mounted and getting the flanges taped off, the insulation company that did the spray foam also sealed all the windows.

mount the wire to the wall using wireties with eyes. Quite the process

That's a shame that some inspectors are not up to speed and still refuse to work with it more sensibly.

I very rarely had to melt through plastic web as we made all the horizontal wire runs in the small space at the seam of each block where the ARXX webs don't go.. A plumber's saw kept nearby helps you zip right through them if you have to.

Mike597;
Based on your experience with this "contractor"; what do you think homeowners should ask during an interview to avoid problems like you experienced?
Looking back, can you think of any red flags?
Any other suggestions to help future homeowners have better results?

To appease the inspector I used a 2" hole-saw to cut a hole in the foam, then I'd snap that piece out, drill a tapcon and mount the wire to the wall using wireties with eyes. Quite the process, but the inspector passed us. I think it was the first ICF house he has seen. 

That boggles my mind that he would have you do that.  Where does he think the wire is going?  The chainsaw that I use leaves it tight enough where I have to use a shim to stuff the wire into the groove. 

The only thing I used a hot-knife for was cutting a plumbing vents and to run some pex for a couple hydrants.  I couldn't imagine doing everything with a hot-knife. 

The chainsaw is the way to go.  I rigged up an shop-vac attachment with a 2" metal plumbing hanger attached to the handle.  That cut down dramatically on the mess. 

I couldn't imagine doing everything with a hot-knife.

Everyone wanted to use the hot knife.

It's fun. :-)

Posted By ICFHybrid on 18 Jun 2012 10:19 PM

I couldn't imagine doing everything with a hot-knife.

Everyone wanted to use the hot knife.

It's fun. :-)

Well, with the nudura blocks, there's a continuous plastic web from the top to the bottom, so you'd get 7" then you'd be stopped dead in your "tracks".  It would make more sense if there were the "foam only" sections, like in your block.

Posted By jeepster on 18 Jun 2012 11:43 PM

Well, with the nudura blocks, there's a continuous plastic web from the top to the bottom, so you'd get 7" then you'd be stopped dead in your "tracks".  It would make more sense if there were the "foam only" sections, like in your block.

What method/tool would you use with Nudura blocks?

That amazes me that a so-called expert could do such a poor job with ICF. I just finished my basement (my first ICF experience at ALL) and it came out within 1/8" dimensionally, and 1/4" corner-to-corner squareness. I used Fox Blocks, and was amazed at what a precision wall they produced. I am a toolmaker by trade, though, and am beyond meticulous about checking and re-checking. I had a skilled ICF contractor do the pouring and tweak the walls. Looking forward to hearing more about your build.

Posted By Lbear on 19 Jun 2012 04:16 AM

Posted By jeepster on 18 Jun 2012 11:43 PM

Well, with the nudura blocks, there's a continuous plastic web from the top to the bottom, so you'd get 7" then you'd be stopped dead in your "tracks".  It would make more sense if there were the "foam only" sections, like in your block.

What method/tool would you use with Nudura blocks?

 
Read a few posts up.  I use a chainsaw.

It would make more sense if there were the "foam only" sections, like in your block.

You're right; having a continuous web to cut through each time might throw me over to the chainsaw method. I'd use the ARXX block again fer sure. There was nothing I didn't like about it.

Posted By jeepster on 18 Jun 2012 11:43 PM

Well, with the nudura blocks, there's a continuous plastic web from the top to the bottom, so you'd get 7" then you'd be stopped dead in your "tracks".  It would make more sense if there were the "foam only" sections, like in your block.

The advantage of having a continuous web is that it helps with preventing floating and compression.

Here are some pics of the chainsaw, worked great and left a small-tight channel for the wire to sit in.  As mentioned above, I used a shim as well to push the wires in.  I have no idea what else this would be good for, I highly doubt it would actually cut a branch thicker than my finger so it's going on CL with the hot knife.  Worked great for this purpose, really clean and with no cord to get in the way.  I picked it up at Home Depot, drilled the hole 2.5" from the edge (same thickness as foam) and the thickness of the bolt holds it just far enough from the concrete to avoid hitting.  The inspector really liked the setup and was able to see we were putting the wire in deep enough where it wouldn't need nail/screw protection.

If I were to do this all again, I would want to see more projects that are in progress and bring a 6' level (or larger) to see how straight his walls are.  Mine bulge out obviously due to the weight of the concrete and lack of supports.  I asked many times how they support the exterior side of the walls and was told they don't need them, stating it's impossible on the outside for the second floor walls.  The next thing I would do is pick the brains of all the experts on here and find out what the ideal spacing is between the vertical supports for a pour.  I would also consider asking about a thicker block, maybe this would help hold the concrete back and avoid the bulging.  Some of these problems may be related to the brand of block he used, which I can't remember right now (will dig up paperwork and post).

The next thing I would do is check out those blocks made with that paper/wood product.  Since it's not foam, I would have avoided a number of issues that came up with the inspectors about covering it for fire code.  At one point, I had an inspector debating whether or not to require 5/8 drywall everywhere and if that would even be enough or if I would need double 5/8s to make a true fire break.  Thankfully, he dialed it down and we continued normally.

I believe it states right in IBC the thickness of gyp protection on foams. I think 1/2" is all the fire protection they require.

I had another issue come up that thank fully the carpenter was able to come up with a work-around that just cost labor to fix.   We had the problem of the house not being square, which was a pain to deal with and will continue to haunt us (like for laying flooring squarely), but another one was that the exterior wall height was not level.  What I mean by that was I set my laser on a stand in the middle of the house on the second floor after the trusses were down and took measurements all the way around the second floor.  The floor was exact, everywhere I put my levels (Stabilas) it showed level so I had a confirmed base to work off.  I walked around with the receiver and found the 2x12s bolted to the top of the walls to vary from one end of the house to the other 2.25".  This required substantial time from myself and the carpenter to rip plywood and 2x12 material down to taper all the way around the house to get back to level.  I'm not sure if this margin of error is common in ICF construction, I would assume not.  My thought here is the blocks either floated apart (up) from each other or some were not compressed fully into the one below and the small differences added up as the house was built and the second floor was finished.  This probably wouldn't be noticeable if only the basement walls were done in ICF, but 30' up it's very noticeable.

In my opinion this all comes down again to who is doing the work.  If I could go back I would want to talk to more people about their experience with the contractor.  The 2 people we talked to were not at all familiar with the trades and had others do all the work, being totally hands off they probably had no clue.  I'd like to talk to people who did work on their homes, or were more involved throughout the process.  That's the other side of this, maybe I'm too picky because I'm there all the time doing so much.

The advantage of having a continuous web is that it helps with preventing floating and compression.

Maybe, but we didn't have continuous web and there were no such issues.

the small differences added up as the house was built and the second floor was finished

When you work with horizontal units like that - siding, bricks, blocks, whatever, you take constant total measurements to be sure you are on track. There should be no opportunity for accumulation of small errors.

The problem isn't that it was ICF; your contractor probably isn't any more successful at conventional construction using those methods.

That's the other side of this, maybe I'm too picky because I'm there all the time doing so much.

Your expectations of a level sill plate and square foundation are entirely reasonable.

And the water comes out in the middle of the basement wall because .... ?

Read "Excited to start ICF home" thread below in which Mike597 laments unsquare corners and unlevel walls. The point is that good workmanship is what makes a great house, rather than the construction method, and my bet is that ICF contractors screw up just as often as other builders. One difference: you can take a stud wall apart and start over without reaching for the jackhammer.

Posted By toddm on 20 Jun 2012 04:59 PM
And the water comes out in the middle of the basement wall because .... ?

Read "Excited to start ICF home" thread below in which Mike597 laments unsquare corners and unlevel walls. The point is that good workmanship is what makes a great house, rather than the construction method, and my bet is that ICF contractors screw up just as often as other builders. One difference: you can take a stud wall apart and start over without reaching for the jackhammer.

Reminded me of another mistake they made.  They poured the second floor walls while we were in Florida for a wedding, we got back and I shot right over to the house to see how it went and found they completely missed installing the 6' wide x 3' tall window in the master bath where the whirlpool is.  So a concrete cutting company came out and $800 later we had our window.  In case anyone is wondering, Yes, he tried to get me to pay the bill, and no- I did not pay it.

Absolute train wreck of a company.  My wife has a couple friends that are in various stages of getting ready to build, 2 have land and 2 don't, some have plans.  2 are very interested in ICF.  Already that's at least 1 job he won't be getting due to poor quality.

Mike;
Your expectations are not unreasonable, and your assessment is correct; the contractor is the primary problem. It does come down to who is doing the work, an he/she should insist on using a quality block.
Your contractor is correct that the outside of the wall is not typically braced. From what you have described, I suspect that the problems are not so much the spacing between strongbacks, but sloppy workmanship possibly coupled with a poor ICF block.
Since 2004, I have made about 130 ICF pours with 9 different block; 3 of which we will not use again. Some blocks definitely contribute to the various problems you described.
All top ICF pours must be lasered, even Nudura and Hobbs. We have made a custom of ripping each top block independently, then lasering the concrete during finishing operations.
I almost hate to bring it up, but I wonder if the lintel for the master bath window is sufficient? If he missed the window, he may have missed the reinforcement too.
I regret the experience you have had with ICF's, because I hear those stories all too often from the pump operators. If I, an an ICF contractor hear these horror stories, how many potential clients are scared away by similar stories by those who don't know that it isn't the construction method, it is the contractor?!
I would be very interested in learning what brand the block was.

rvalue- check your PMs