The crew just left today after pouring ICF walls for our house. Everything looks good to me, but when they were pouring the footer on Monday I noticed there was no rebar sticking up out of the footer like I had seen in pictures of ICF footers online. I asked the contractor about it and he said it wasn't necessary for our application. The walls are 10'6" tall allowing for 14" from the bottom of the footer to the top of a 4" slab (to be poured later), 6" Nudura blocks, 4,000 psi wall mix, 1/2" rebar on 18" horizontal and 36" vertical grid, the footer is 10" thick 2' wide with two runs of 1/2" rebar 3000 psi mix. Also when we started pouring the walls, no concrete vibrators were used, they used a rubber attachment on cordless impacts on the outside of the walls. After the dust settled and everyone went home, I started thinking about some of these issues and started looking at some of the post on here and now I'm really nervous! Any input will be appreciated.

Posted By staticclover on 22 Jun 2012 03:59 AM
The crew just left today after pouring ICF walls for our house. Everything looks good to me, but when they were pouring the footer on Monday I noticed there was no rebar sticking up out of the footer like I had seen in pictures of ICF footers online. I asked the contractor about it and he said it wasn't necessary for our application. The walls are 10'6" tall allowing for 14" from the bottom of the footer to the top of a 4" slab (to be poured later), 6" Nudura blocks, 4,000 psi wall mix, 1/2" rebar on 18" horizontal and 36" vertical grid, the footer is 10" thick 2' wide with two runs of 1/2" rebar 3000 psi mix. Also when we started pouring the walls, no concrete vibrators were used, they used a rubber attachment on cordless impacts on the outside of the walls. After the dust settled and everyone went home, I started thinking about some of these issues and started looking at some of the post on here and now I'm really nervous! Any input will be appreciated.

There should be rebar in the footers, as this ties the footer to the ICF wall. It should have looked like this:


  


Their use of cordless impacts on the outside walls instead of a pencil vibrator is very disconcerting to me.

How many ICF homes did this contractor build? Have you seen his work before on the other projects?

Have you looked at the set of plans that was presumably approved by the local building authorities? There will be a detail drawing which shows what was approved for this "application".

No other way to put it but I think you got screwed. It's unfortunate. The no dowels in the footer is a no no. You want the footer attached to the walls with more than adhesion of the concrete. You had enough sense to ask the question you should have stopped the operation right there. This should have been a red flag on what would follow. I'm saying this for future consumers. That's not the biggest problem. If this contractor had any knowledge of icf's he would have known of the precriptive method which is in the IBC and is the outline for building with icf's. According to the pm the minimum vertical rebar for your wall with the best backfill soil would be a #4 6" on center not 36". so you are way under strength with your rebar. If your soil is the worst it would be a #5 4" on center that's a big difference on what you got. As far as the pour the external vibrator is worthless as is a pencil vibrator. The 4000 lbs mix gives me hope but only if conbined with a mid range water reducer to increase flow. The nudura form has a fairly large web which makes pouring a lot tougher than other forms on the market especially in narrower widths. Also warm weather makes it easier for a contractor to increase flow by adding water which weakens the concrete. My solution to what you got would be to strip foam in a pattern and add buttressses in the inside of walls to add strength but only after consulting an engineer. Unfortunately this is not all that uncommon a situation. In my area that I serve every lumber yard now has icf's and any contractor has accesss to them without any real knowledge except fill them with concrete and be done. Luckily I am seeing building inspectors who are inspecting icf pours, checking for proper rebar schedules as per the pm.

Lbear, they have built many ICF homes they're covered up with work. They won an award last year from their states ICF association for an ICF house, so I took for granted they knew what was going on. ICFHybrid, we have little or no oversight where I live. My head is spinning right now.

ICFHybrid, we have little or no oversight where I live.

No building permits or review thereof? Who drew the plans? I assume they are prescriptive and not engineer-stamped.

It appears as if you do have some vertical steel in your walls, so the chances that you can get by without the dowels or tieing the walls to the footing is virtually nil.

Got pix?

We had a local architect firm draw the house plans, but only for layout no specs for the ICF, just where to put everything. ICFHybrid can you elaberate on your last statement about the steel?

According to your OP, you do have some vertical steel rebar (1/2" rebar on 18" horizontal and 36" vertical grid) , so without overlapping bar (what we are calling dowels) to connect that to the footing, it's nearly useless. I just can't wait to hear what the attempted explanation for this is going to be from the builder. Where are you?

You had an architect draw a floorplan with no building specs or engineering whatsoever? That seems like a lot of liability for the architect's office. Did they know someone was going to build it?

The horizontal steel can provide strength against the backfill pressure if the wall length (corner to corner) is less than the wall height (ie, tensile strength is provided by reinforcing steel running parrallel to the shortest wall measurement - either length or height). You should be able to get away without dowels in the footing by pouring the basement slab prior to backfill - this will effectively hold the bottom of the wall in place (the keyway will provide some holding strength, as well).

This being said - I would recommend contacting an engineer to review the foundation reinforcing, or simply ask your contractor to show where he got his info from (maybe he has a blanket stamp for your area that nobody else knows about?? - long shot)

ICFHybrid, There are building specs, but it just specifies Nudura building system for the walls, the plan was originally drawn for stick frame and we changed to ICF and yes they did know that we were going to build it. ICFBdr, This is not a slab for a basement. Is this the term used for the type of slab we are pouring? Forgive me, I'm not a builder.

Check the walls at the bottom of the wall where it meets the footing , you should check for gravelling. Cut the foam to check the wall at various locations

smartwall, Ill get right on that.

Just cut four small holes in the bottom of the wall and the concrete looks good. I looked up the specs on the Nudura site and what they did as far as the vertical and horizontal rebar seems to jive with their specs. I have yet to see anything that says dowels are not necessary in the footer. I'm waiting on a call back from an engineer.

Sounds like this is not a basement, so that makes it less of a problem. There is little to no chance of the bottom of the wall moving without the presence of backfill. Did they maybe use a keyway instead, which is a groove made in the footing usually with a 2x4? There are some soil types that dont even require footings, but probably not at only a 6 inch wall. Where are you located?

There are building specs, but it just specifies Nudura building system for the walls

The Nudura system prescriptive manual requires dowels.

ICFHybrid, I was refering to the building specs of the architect, they left it vauge by saying "Nudura wall system to be used". I haven't seen a wall system spec yet that didn't call for dowels. So I guess the question is now is how bad off am I without the dowels? I'm still waiting on the engineer to call back. jeepster, the footer was poured smooth.

I'm located in west Kentucky, the soil is hard clay, we have very little trouble around here with shifting soil or settling. We're on a hill that was panned off about three years ago, we're not on any fill dirt or anything like that.

"Nudura wall system to be used".

If they specified Nudura wall system, it has to have dowels, according to the Nudura Prescriptive Manual.

ICFHybrid, that is what I gathered.

What state are you located in??

From what it appears, the contractor is relying on the weight of the wall and the soil back-fill to keep the wall on top of the footing, instead of the proper method of using dowels/rebar. Even in a wood framed home the bottom sill plates are anchored into the concrete footing to keep the house planted properly.

A home can literally be moved or slide off of the foundation if not properly attached. It would take severe winds or an earthquake to do that. If he didn't use dowels/rebar then he is relying on the weight of the wall to keep it planted. Which is wrong but with the weight of concrete, it's less likely to move on you. There is a cold joint between your footing top and the bottom of your ICF wall, with no rebar/dowel in place to tie the two together.