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One Insane ICF Project

Last Post 03 Jul 2012 07:41 PM by ICFHybrid. 49 Replies.

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Lbear

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03 Jul 2012 01:11 AM
Posted By dmaceld on 02 Jul 2012 11:42 PM Actually, it's kind of astounding how quickly nature reclaims the landscape after a town, building, mining site, etc., is abandoned. The regenerative power of nature is (to use an overused word) awesome! And then there are examples of how time mocks man's sense of permanence. A building in downtown Hammond, LA has a stone copy of the Ford logo on the wall. I'm sure the original Ford dealer who built the building planned to be there forever. Well, he's been gone from there for decades. The Kaufman family donated to a conservatory Falling Water, which was built by Frank Lloyd Wright for the elder Kaufmans, because the "permanent" concrete house was deteriorating and required extensive and expensive repairs to keep it from succumbing to Mother Nature. Some day, undoubtedly many, many, years from now, but some day, the Golden Gate bridge will come down, as will the Capitol in DC, Hoover Dam, and all other man made monuments. And the faces of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Roosevelt, will continue to gaze over the American landscape. They're man shaped, not man made. The only man made structures that date back hundreds if not thousands of years, some even back to the BC's are the Pyramids, Roman Coliseum, Parthenon, Taj Mahal, Great Wall of China, and so on. What all those structures have in common is that they were made out of concrete/masonry/stone. Time and nature takes its toll on everything, including mountains and anything we build. One cannot escape the fact that masonry is time tested. As far as "Falling Water", the one major problem is that the home was built on the side of a hill with a creek and waterfall flowing through the structure. This puts everything to the test with moisture and erosion. If Falling Water had been built out of wood, it would have collapsed long time ago. I agree, man is but just a blip on the radar screen when it comes to time and the power of nature.

MikeSolar

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Posts:376

03 Jul 2012 06:38 AM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 02 Jul 2012 11:05 PM http://www.treehugger.com/green-architecture/concrete-can-it-be-green.html I hope you don't think that quoting a "Treehugger" blog represents any sort of scholarship whatsoever as regards the relative benefits of building with concrete and/or timber or other materials. All that blog has is some snarky comments about concrete. Nothing of any substance. And, I think you might want to spend a bit more time with that graph again before you make false reports here. That is a common graph depicting embodied energy for materials used world wide. Concrete looms large because it is the most widely used building material on earth; in terms of WEIGHT. The fact is, that on a lb for lb basis, concrete has 10X LESS embodied energy than timber. The real questions have to do with building efficient structures using concrete and wood and how they compare both upfront and over a lifetime of using energy. Your graph does not support anything like that. I do believe that the appropriate population is somewhere around 1.5 billion While you are entitled to your opinions, I am wondering if this one is based on any real knowledge of biology. Maybe the UN authors have changed their mind since then because estimates now run all the way from 2 billion up to a trillion people, with a lot of studies centered around 8-16 billion. I will dig deeper into the embodied energy real numbers (and if you have something to support your numbers, please post it) but just because it is the most popular material doesn't make it the most energy efficient. It, however, very transportable, formable, adaptable to different terrains and because of this it has become so popular. Remember also that the makeup of 1000 year old mortar is quite different than todays product. energy in...energy out. Estimates on how many people can SUSTAINABLY live on the planet have not really changed. Some people do say we can have 10 billion on the planet but it is widely accepted that we are taking 3-4 times the resources out of the earth (everything from energy to fish) than we are putting back in. I would like to think we can change that but with 80% of the fish in the sea already gone, I very much doubt it.

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ICFHybrid

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03 Jul 2012 08:58 AM
After all, in the end Mother Nature is going to win, regardless There are always going to be folks who want to "get" what they can right now without regard to the consequences, but I think most people have an interest in leaving something workable for their children and grandchildren. Despite Mother Nature's resiliency, it is possible for us to force changes upon the environment that have serious consequences for humans and the ways in which they live. Can she recover in a thousand or ten thousand years? Yes, but a lot of human history can be written or not written in that time.

ICFHybrid

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03 Jul 2012 09:05 AM
I will dig deeper into the embodied energy real numbers Great. and if you have something to support your numbers, please post it It will be good for you to work through it on your own. but just because it is the most popular material doesn't make it the most energy efficient Not part of any of my contentions. Remember also that the makeup of 1000 year old mortar is quite different than todays product. Not sure what you think that has to do with anything. Estimates on how many people can SUSTAINABLY live on the planet have not really changed I'm afraid that not only do they change, but the estimates vary widely as I just mentioned from a few billion to a thousand billion. There is no single source for such estimates. with 80% of the fish in the sea already gone Are you referring to species or biomass? Fish are one of the renewable resources.

toddm

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03 Jul 2012 01:31 PM
Cement is made by heating limestone and mineral additives to 2700 degrees Fahrenheit. So, yes, concrete shows up at the jobsite with a much larger energy investment than wooden studs. You will perhaps recall the MIT lifecycle study that reported an overall smaller carbon footprint for ICF compared to a code minimum wood house based on operating savings over 75 years that made up for the embodied energy in concrete. Critics complained that it set up yet another straw man in a history of "better than crap" studies by the ICF industry. But I think reasonable people would agree that a concrete house theoretically will outlast SIP and similar technologies comparable tin efficiency to ICF. I say "theoretically" because we live in a throwaway society. Every city of any size has a derelict 19th century manse that is as sad as the neighborhood around it. The builders of those houses lived their dream, and more power to them. Briana Alhadeff is free to spend her money as she pleases. Kudos for her net zero goal. That said, when magazine articles quote her saying the earth will suffer if the building community does not follow her example, you don't have to ELF, or ALF or Keebler to roll your eyes. Before anyone flips a light switch at Casa Bella Verde, she will have already used more energy than the average inhabitant on earth consumes in a lifetime. Some example.

MikeSolar

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Posts:376

03 Jul 2012 04:34 PM
Posted By ICFHybrid on 03 Jul 2012 09:05 AM I will dig deeper into the embodied energy real numbers Great. and if you have something to support your numbers, please post it It will be good for you to work through it on your own. Does this mean you don't have the info? but just because it is the most popular material doesn't make it the most energy efficient Not part of any of my contentions. Remember also that the makeup of 1000 year old mortar is quite different than todays product. Not sure what you think that has to do with anything. Embodied energy is vastly different Estimates on how many people can SUSTAINABLY live on the planet have not really changed I'm afraid that not only do they change, but the estimates vary widely as I just mentioned from a few billion to a thousand billion. There is no single source for such estimates. You are right, there is no single source but it is generally accepted that we take out far more than we put in. We are a net drain on the planet with 80% of the fish in the sea already gone Are you referring to species or biomass? Fish are one of the renewable resources. Currently considered edible biomass. Tell that to the east coast fisherman who has no more cod to fish. we haven't seen an increase since the fishery closed in the 90s

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Lbear

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03 Jul 2012 04:48 PM
Before this topic starts to turn into a debate on why humans need to stop multiplying and implement population control methods like the Chinese. Ideology, character judging and world views aside, please let's not go there. The Casa Verde home is a beautiful piece of architecture and it will employ many energy saving technologies which is good. Let's avoid the character attacks & moral judgments on the homeowner. Happy 4th of July! (uh oh, think about all the pollution and embodied energy it took to create the fireworks, package them, ship them out, install them. Then the millions of people who will drive out to see the fireworks, the pollution from the cars. The sulfur, the gun powder. It's maddening!! Time to go and hide in the cave)

ICFHybrid

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03 Jul 2012 05:22 PM
Does this mean you don't have the info? No, it means EXACTLY what I said, which is that it would be good for you to work through it on your own.

toddm

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Posts:1152

03 Jul 2012 06:58 PM
I don't remember any discussion of population control here, but as you read in this forum you might wonder, as I do, if the world would be a better place with fewer ICF sales people in it. Speaking of which, are you an ICF sales person, Lbear? Careful with those fireworks. You might start more wildfires that change the economics of stud wall construction forever. Or -- quelle horreur -- you might scare the rodents so badly they start looking for concrete homes. Good news on that front. The wife swore off bird feeders forever after a critter decided last night that, yup, that's bear seed. Hey, that's a good one for you, Lbear. ICF: completely bear proof.* * With bars over the patio doors.

ICFHybrid

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03 Jul 2012 07:41 PM
Ha Ha. I don't live in hurricane country, so my interest in hurricane resistant glazing is pretty low, but if Marvin and Pella want to start screening ads showing their windows up against marauding black bears, I'll watch with interest. :-)