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ReadyToRetire
Basic Member
Posts:212
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| 06 Jan 2008 07:32 AM |
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Lockard,
Thank you: the drawing is clear on how you mate to the conduit from below a sub-floor.
Why is mating to a conduit in a slab so much more difficult that you need a square foot box to do it?
Very respectfully,
Larry
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Lockard
New Member
Posts:40
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| 06 Jan 2008 10:46 AM |
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Well Larry, originally I thought we were talking about commercial jobs on a slab. Thermocore did several large jobs last year that were, I'm guessing now, between 15,000 & 20,000 sq.ft. The Designers/Architects/Engineers rejected furring because it was redundant and expensive and they would have to use conduit anyway. So they decided to concentrate the wiring plan. There were only 10 places along the exterior walls where several stubs came out of the slab at each place. There was quite a bit of cable to work with at each place and the electricians needed the room. That's about the best I can explain it. One of the jobs was for the MO Dept. of Conservation. Apparently they were happy with the end product because I hear they are planning to do another job using the same panels and wiring scheme.
On residential, the block outs are a lot smaller and usually a last resort. But houses on slabs are not that common around here. If Thermocore does do a slab or walkout basement, they try to bring the wire down from above instead of up through the slab. Sorry for any confusion.
If you need more info, I can direct you to someone else that can do a better job of explaining. |
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| Lockard |
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ReadyToRetire
Basic Member
Posts:212
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| 06 Jan 2008 11:02 AM |
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Thanks Lockard; that makes sense.
I was confused why it would be necessary for a single cable. At a commercial site with multiple cables coming up, a large box makes sense.
Very respectfully,
Larry
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Lockard
New Member
Posts:40
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| 06 Jan 2008 01:34 PM |
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Tim, shame on you. "As it lets the inside of the SIP resemble stick construction"? Are you trying to use psychology on electricians? HA! I've talked to several seasoned, cranky electricians about SIP wiring and they all said that some things are easier, some harder. Basically it's a wash as far as labor is concerned. None charge us more for labor for Polyurethane panels with PVC conduit. All agreed that the panels take a little more wire than stick framing because of, in some cases, a little less direct path from point to point.
Actually, if you are that concerned with retrofitting the wiring, go for it, if you are comfortable with the furring. Personally, I think the PVC conduit in Polyurethane is much cleaner and easier. Look at both of the .jpg's I've posted. That's just my point of view. I favor the panel to the sill because it gives continuous insulation from the foundation to roof with no breaks, no coming back to insulate the rim with whatever. And there is no load on the floor.
I doubt that not having Thermocore chases installed will even come close to covering the costs of furring, even if you do it yourself, but call them, ask for Mikey. The conduit and boxes are relatively inexpensive, and I've watched them install it in no time. Compared to the cost of 2x, ripping, layout, fastening to the wall, nail guards, etc. I just don't see it. But that's just me. I'm kind of like electricity, I take the path of least resistance.... or in other words, I'm lazy.
What if you used 6" panels instead of 4"? That might reduce the sound attenuation and give you deeper windows.
Actually, I've always thought SIPs were quieter than stick built, except for impact noise like hail or heavy rain. I kinda like those noises.
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 Attachment: Wiring Detail 1b.JPG
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| Lockard |
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TimButterfield
New Member
Posts:6
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| 06 Jan 2008 03:09 PM |
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Lockard,
Thanks for the SIP on sill drawing. That explains it very well. It should be almost as easy as running electrical with furring strips. The wires could still run along the outside wall, just below the joist instead of above. Seeing how simple this is, I now prefer it to using the furring strips.
I'm not too worried about sound attenuation. I was just commenting on that because I had recently been going through the old forum threads and had read the one on the sound studio application. IIRC, thickness did not have much affect on STC value, though an air gap helped some. Like you, I, too, like the sound of rain. As for deeper windows, 2" may add a little, but not very much. If I can afford the floor space, I would like to put in window seats with adjacent storage closets along the wall. That would definitely add some light variation.
I'm convinced (for now). Having PU exterior walls is looking better and better.
Thanks.
Tim
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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kevinbourland
New Member
Posts:31
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| 06 Jan 2008 09:30 PM |
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My "bulge" on my "problem wall" is now 14 ft and a whopping 9/16 from countertops and the half wall. It seems to only be in the center of the wall.
Thermocore (Indiana) kind of disapointed me .(Grrrrr... try to be nice.... be niiiiice Kevin....) But, I understand that with the Holidays and such.... we are all.... busy.( Hey, I did it!!! I was nice)
Anyway, they mentioned after the Holidays, they would speak with the foam manufacturer and see what they can find out.
"Why do I have an eeery feeling that I need everyone one to tell me that it well be alright"? LOL..... |
Attachment: 101_0655.jpg
Attachment: 101_0661.jpg
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Lockard
New Member
Posts:40
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| 07 Jan 2008 12:21 AM |
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That does look bad Kevin. Did the bow show up right away? Were the panels stored flat while on site? I know this might sound silly, but your floor has not sagged? Just asking.
Have you put a carpenters level to the wall to determine if the wall has buckled floor to ceiling or horizontally.
I've never seen anything like that before. Does the wall show the same amount of bulge on the other side? What I'm trying to figure out is whether the wall is buckling from a load/loads they weren't designed for, or is the panel thin for some reason.
By the way, you were nice. And I'll bet that if it is Thermocore's fault, they will make it right.
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 07 Jan 2008 12:49 PM |
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Posted By kevinbourland on 01/06/2008 9:30 PM
My "bulge" on my "problem wall" is now 14 ft and a whopping 9/16 from countertops and the half wall. It seems to only be in the center of the wall. Hmmm, so it's still plumb from the top plate to the bottom plate? And, the wall bows out just in the middle? |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4327
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| 07 Jan 2008 01:20 PM |
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I am curious as to what is happening outside? and if the bottom plate was securely fastened? |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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trigem1
Basic Member
Posts:123
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| 07 Jan 2008 05:34 PM |
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I’m intrigued with your problem. May I ask a few questions? 1. If you have the original drawings, was there an insulated spline or wood spline in the area? Or was it just a plain flat panel with no spline? 2. What does the outside look like? Is there a connecting wall on the outside like an attached garage? 3. Is there a weight-bearing beam over this area? 4. What do you mean by half wall? 5. Is the floor and ceiling still level? 6. Were they level when the walls were erected? 7. Were there any problems you remember when the panels were erected? 8. Have you had any water infiltration problems? 9. Are there any water pipes in the wall? 10. How thick are these walls? I believe there might be a basic underlying construction problem causing this. I would ask an architectural engineer to inspect your house to find out why this is happening and what it will take to repair. At the rate the problem is getting worse (over 1/8” per month), the problem could become very serious in a short period of time. How far will the panel bend before it breaks? Having the above information for the engineer will help. Good luck. Please keep us informed. Steve Etten [email protected]www.GrandCountySIPs.com |
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panelwright
New Member
Posts:31
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| 07 Jan 2008 08:07 PM |
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I've seen problems similar to this on a few occasions.
Steve has asked some obvious questions but the first one I would ask is,"have you checked for foam shrinkage?"
A fairly rare problem with urethane foam is post shrinkage. Either due to off-ratio mixture or some chemistry problem, the cores can shrink over time. If the problem shows itself quickly enough, the defective panels can be culled. However, they can and have slipped past. I've seen an entire house package replaced due to this problem and the panels didn't come from Thermocore, though they have been bit by this phenomenon as well.
I would suggest you drill into the wall and use a metal rod and some math to determine the exact core thickness. Do this test in a few different areas and see if that sheds any light on your problem.
Al Cobb
Panelwrights
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trigem1
Basic Member
Posts:123
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| 07 Jan 2008 09:34 PM |
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Al, Good ideas, but Thermocore uses Polyurethane, and Kevin earlier stated that the outside wall was also bowed out. It seems to me that 9/16 is a lot of shrinkage, and I would expect to see a similar amount on the outside wall. Ever see that picture of a SIP panel with an elephant standing on it, and it deflects about an inch? That's what it immediately reminded me of. It makes me think that there is some physical force being exerted on the wall, either from the inside or the outside to make it deflect like that. The worrisome part is that it’s continuing to get worse. If my leg was bending like that, I’d call a doctor. I think Kevin would be well advised to call someone to look at this before it gets worse. I'll be very interested in what is causing this and the solution. Steve Etten [email protected]www.GrandCountySIPs.com |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 07 Jan 2008 10:19 PM |
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Posted By trigem1 on 01/07/2008 9:34 PM
Al,
Good ideas, but Thermocore uses Polyurethane... Steve, Al knows that, and he indicated such in his post. Al is probably(nope, he is) the most experienced SIP professional posting on this board, so he knows his stuff. Thinking about this last night, I was concerned about a possible void(the foam didn't completely fill the panel cavity). And, from everything that I've read, that still looks like the most probable cause. Let's see what the 'thickness test' yields. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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trigem1
Basic Member
Posts:123
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| 08 Jan 2008 10:11 AM |
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Panelcrafter, Thanks for the heads-up on Al. I joined this forum to learn and gain knowledge, and it’s good to know who to pay particular attention to. A lot can be learned from a discussion with knowledgeable people. In one of KevinBourlands first posts, he said “They seem to transmit sound thru and down the walls more than conventional walls” which struck me as odd, because usually polyurethane makes a pretty good sound insulator. This leads me to think you are probably correct in your idea that there is a void in the foam. If so, I wonder if there are more voids in his walls. I’m also starting to think you were correct in you assertion that this company is one to “Just say NO”. I’ll be very interested to see how they handle this problem. Steve Etten [email protected]www.GrandCountySIPs.com |
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kevinbourland
New Member
Posts:31
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| 09 Jan 2008 09:36 PM |
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I do appreciate your thoughts and sharing your experience with my problem.
I will put together a better photo package for you to view. I have been trying to map the wall by placing the string at each end, and checking for deviations. As I do have cabinets, this is really impossible to do and to achieve a full perspective of the problem. I have however found since my last post, that the top of the wall is warped as well, but not as much, approx. 5/16 at the point above the worst at mid wall.
When I had mentioned half wall, I was referring to a breakfast type bar.
I Did the same in the master bedroom, and noticed that the wall seems to bow out as well. Not as much as the kitchen. It is harder to tell since I do not have a fixed reference like I have in the kitchen. I will try and check the rest of the walls to the best of my ability.... I can only imagine that the shorter walls would less likely show little.
I will also peel back some siding and see if the siding is just drifting on the fasteners, which might make it look bowed.
I suppose that I would drill all the way through the wall and take total measurement... right? or...drill to inside face of outside OSB.... from the inside.
Also, not to add to your thought process, but on most of the inside walls where they meet a sips wall, the sheetrock tape is lifting fron the 90 degree corners and forming onto a radius.
I just checked where the tape on the sips wall is pulling from an inside wall, and the sips wall is bowed out 3/16 in a 3 ft vertical span. Not very wide though. Makes me wonder if shrinkage might be the culprit...... I have more cracks in the corners than you could ever imagine for a house that was just built!! Every corner !!!!
We appreciate all suggestions and help, Thanks all!
Kevin
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Thermocore PS
New Member
Posts:6
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| 11 Jan 2008 03:02 PM |
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I have gone away from this forum but do to the postings I am back.
I will respond to what I see as two seperate issues in this posting. The first is Kevin B. Keven fisrt contacted me approximatly 4 months ago and this is what we know and have learned.
Kevin did not buy his panels directly from Thermocore although we do sell direct.
Kevin did not use our install team. The panels were installed by the builder.
Kevin informed me that the panels were handled very roughly by the builder on site.
Kevin is suing or planning to sue his builder.
Kevin sent me the photos of his wall and as I have informed him I have sent them on to a PHD at our foam supplier to get his input.
Because of the holidays I have net heard back from the PHD as of yet. (I last talked with Kevin this week)
Kevin needs to be working through his builder and have his builder contact us as that is who we have the contract with and that is who did the install.
Kevin has asked us to come out and inspect his install and I have told him that since everything is covered it would be difficult to see anything and since he is or is planning to sue his builder/panel installer it is not somthing I would get into at this point.
I have returned all of Kevins messages and I am trying to work through his issues in the best mannor. Kevin is very frustrated but he also needs to work through the chain that put his panels in place. His house is not in danger of failure as I have told him and we are contacting the best qualified people we know to get him some answers.
If anyone has any questions or comments feel free to contact me at 317-831-8888
Patrick Egan
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Thermocore PS
New Member
Posts:6
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| 11 Jan 2008 03:23 PM |
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Now for the second issue.
John Cogan has made a number of posts on this subject that warrent a response.
John of Panel Crafters is someone that we quoted a number of projects for in 2005. I believe we sold one through him.
Once I read Johns postings here I first chose to call him. The most I could get out was "***" prior to him hanging up on me. I would prefer to work these issues out in private but that does not seem to be Johns choice.
I will avoid the childish name calling that John has used. I will note that I am the only sales person that Thermocore has and given that we are in our 11 year and have grown very year since our inception I must have some skill.
I have never been accused of steeling from anyone in this industry ever.
Thermocore takes a deposit as everyone pretty much does in the industry and than we do not require the final payment untill the product has shipped. So the comment that it is all about the money and I took money and than delyed, delayed is baffeling. A point worth noting. If I did not believe that we as a company could do the things we say we will do than I most certainly would get the final payment PRIOR to shipment. We ship the product and once it is on site or installed final payment is required. If we were a company that could not preform as designed or only cared about the money this would clearly not be our policy.
Does this mean we are perfect. Clearly no. Everyone makes mistakes. It is the human factor that mistakes will be made. And when an error is committed you do the best you can do is fix it. And that is what we try to do.
The postings associated with this topic are the reason why I went away from this forum. The only reason I am aware of this thread is Thermocore of Mo. brought it to my attention. As with all of our customers Kevin will be taken care it is just going to take a little time.
As for the name calling and accusations and the "avoid at all costs" I really do not have time for this.
If anyone has any questions or issues call me. 317-831-8888. I will do my best to talk with you immediiatly or will return your call. And I promise you I will not try to sell you a car.
Patrick Egan
Thermocore Panels Sytems (Indiana)
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Tom Riccio
New Member
Posts:2
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| 11 Jan 2008 11:48 PM |
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If the question is about the quality of Thermocore panels I will state they are the best I have used and until someone can prove differently I will continue to be a loyal customer. I have in the past used Premier, R-Control, Insulspan, and Eagle Panels. All worked fine but none had the precision of Thermocore in the panel lengths or the exact measurements of window cut outs. We have used Thermocore panels for the last four houses, including my personal home, and I'm planning to build with them in 2008. I will also state Pat Egan has been nothing but professional to deal with. He has gone as far as give business to Thermocore of Missouri to make sure our delivery schedule was met. I also don't know how anyone can use EPS vs. polyurethane when constructing wall panels given today's knowledge. JHinson, if you want quality panels at a fair price by all means use Thermocore. I am not an "expert" on all panels but I'm smart enough to recognize a product that works extremely well.
Tom Riccio
Sanctuary Custom Homes
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Penny
New Member
Posts:1
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| 13 Jan 2008 06:42 PM |
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For any one that is thinking of using Thermocore for thier new panel
construction, I would strongly suggest it. Me and my husband have a new
home with thermocore of Indiana, Panels and it was the best decision I
had made through the whole construction time. We looked at other panels
and in my mind they were no comparison. Thermocore panels have a class
1 fire rating, but isn't eps the same foam as one of those coffe cups
that melt in a fire? In my mind that would scare me to build my house
out of somthing that could melt. And the r value is so much greater
than eps per inch, then you have molded in electric boxes, conduit,
window openings with 2x material framed around the opening, and if my
memory serves me I dont rember any eps with 2x material in place.
Wouldn't that be extra charge? Everyone can take their own opinion
about Thermocore in Indiana but I will say I had a very pleseant
experience with thermocore and would suggest their panels to anyone.
And Ive been around construction most of my life and came to learn that
"yes nothing is perfect in the construction world", but thermocore came
pretty darn close to it in my eyes. And in result, me and my family
have a very energy efficient home and loving every minute of it.
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