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Stick/Block House Vs. SIP's. What should be used in a cost comparison?
Last Post 16 Jan 2010 03:39 PM by nlappos. 90 Replies. |
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Danehood
New Member
Posts:4
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| 25 Oct 2009 08:54 PM |
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I've been hopping around this site for a bit, and been researching SIPs and other systems for just shy of two years now on my upcoming build in Austin. I appreciate the knowledge and lively discussion that goes on here - it's been very informative. I think one reason that many people get turned away from SIPs is that they typically receive convoluted answers to cost. Yes - if the first question someone asks is "how much", they're thinking about this all wrong. However, after weighing the benefits, eventually the question does have to come up - what is the difference in cost? Tout all the benefits you like, but if I can't afford it, I'm not gong to build with SIPs. I saw a comparison to cars earlier in this discussion - I would love to get a Maserati (and let's assume a Maserati that gets 90 mpg and has very low maintenance costs), it has everything I want in a car. But I can afford a Ford, so that's what I get, regardless of the low cost associated with ownership after purchase. I just can't pay the up-front cost associated with the former. If I go to the Maserati dealership, weigh the benefits, and ask how much and receive a reply of "Well, if you looks at factors x, y, and z, you just can't compare the two, and if you're not going to buy a Maserati, why get a car?? Go back to your horse and carriage, citizen", I would walk away and never think twice about it.
I can appreciate everyone's exuberance over SIPs - they seem to be an amazing product, and I look forward to the possibility of using them. But people wonder why SIPs haven't been more widely accepted? Because when someone asks about them, they get answers that tend to be anywhere from defensive to vague. That raises flags and people walk away unless they're very determined. Most people don't want to research for two years to build a home - they want to be able to ask a few people about them, get some straight answers, and know what they're dealing with. When someone asks for a cost comparison, I think a dry-in cost for stick-built v. dry-in cost for SIP, minus a few calculations for downsized HVAC, plus a few additional calculations for extra ventilation could be appropriate. I'll gladly post cost comparisons when I begin my build because I will be getting quotes for both. It just seems that the SIP industry is really shooting itself in the foot by not creating a true cost comparison of the two. If I build two identical homes, one SIP, one stick, what is the cost? Not long term energy savings. Not green benefits. How much will my home loan have to be? I know that adds all the additional after-framing expenses, but that's what people want to know, and until they can receive a straight answer, they're going to shop elsewhere.
I hope no one takes this as a slight - I mean it entirely as constructive criticism, and I do hope it is taken as such.
Respectfully,
Josh |
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stonecaveman
Basic Member
Posts:123
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| 25 Oct 2009 08:58 PM |
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The new "Holiday Inn Express" they've just built here is three storeys of SIPs. The hotel industry is a competitive marketplace so I've got to think that Holiday Inn expect a cost saving somewhere in the equation. They used out-of-state builders. The local guys could surely have used the work, but may have cut themselves out of the equation for a lack of SIP knowledge/interest. |
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stonecaveman
Basic Member
Posts:123
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| 25 Oct 2009 09:21 PM |
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Josh,
The problem is that people know what to look for in a car. You don't get a MPG with a house if you did, the buying decision might be different.
You've also got the situation where you buy the car BODY and the SIP body, which is much better than the Stick Body, is nonetheless more than the Stick Body, but then you buy the engine and you realize that the ENGINE in terms of HVAC is more for the Stick Body and then you find that the MPG for the Stick Body is much worse than the SIP body. So you were sucked in by just the body price. If you'd looked at the entire car, the price was probably the same and if you'd looked at the running cost, the price for the SIP car is lower.
Don't you just love car analogies! There are many problems with viewing it this way. Builders unfamiliar with SIPs, or who are just loosing profit because the job is shorter, will mark up the price. The unwary buyer may also take the HVAC guys word for it that his new house need X BTU's per sq. ft. because that's what he always uses (and has a chart that has only three qualities of insulation) and so massively oversize the HVAC system and so the cost.
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Rio
New Member
Posts:80
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| 26 Oct 2009 11:37 AM |
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Posted By Danehood on 10/25/2009 8:54 PM
I've been hopping around this site for a bit, and been researching SIPs and other systems for just shy of two years now on my upcoming build in Austin. I appreciate the knowledge and lively discussion that goes on here - it's been very informative. I think one reason that many people get turned away from SIPs is that they typically receive convoluted answers to cost. Yes - if the first question someone asks is "how much", they're thinking about this all wrong. However, after weighing the benefits, eventually the question does have to come up - what is the difference in cost? Tout all the benefits you like, but if I can't afford it, I'm not gong to build with SIPs. I saw a comparison to cars earlier in this discussion - I would love to get a Maserati (and let's assume a Maserati that gets 90 mpg and has very low maintenance costs), it has everything I want in a car. But I can afford a Ford, so that's what I get, regardless of the low cost associated with ownership after purchase. I just can't pay the up-front cost associated with the former. If I go to the Maserati dealership, weigh the benefits, and ask how much and receive a reply of "Well, if you looks at factors x, y, and z, you just can't compare the two, and if you're not going to buy a Maserati, why get a car?? Go back to your horse and carriage, citizen", I would walk away and never think twice about it.
I can appreciate everyone's exuberance over SIPs - they seem to be an amazing product, and I look forward to the possibility of using them. But people wonder why SIPs haven't been more widely accepted? Because when someone asks about them, they get answers that tend to be anywhere from defensive to vague. That raises flags and people walk away unless they're very determined. Most people don't want to research for two years to build a home - they want to be able to ask a few people about them, get some straight answers, and know what they're dealing with. When someone asks for a cost comparison, I think a dry-in cost for stick-built v. dry-in cost for SIP, minus a few calculations for downsized HVAC, plus a few additional calculations for extra ventilation could be appropriate. I'll gladly post cost comparisons when I begin my build because I will be getting quotes for both. It just seems that the SIP industry is really shooting itself in the foot by not creating a true cost comparison of the two. If I build two identical homes, one SIP, one stick, what is the cost? Not long term energy savings. Not green benefits. How much will my home loan have to be? I know that adds all the additional after-framing expenses, but that's what people want to know, and until they can receive a straight answer, they're going to shop elsewhere.
I hope no one takes this as a slight - I mean it entirely as constructive criticism, and I do hope it is taken as such.
Respectfully,
Josh[/quote]
I think this is a really valid constructive criticism and while it is difficult to quantify the difference it should be able to be done for the initial cost comparison as well as the cost over the life of the structure. When that is done then if one is having to make the sale one can use the sales technique (not a gimmick, a technique) that I read in a wonderful book by Zig Ziglar by asking the client, "Is it a question of cost or is it a question of price?" The client will always ask, "What do you mean?" and then one comes back with using an analogy or in this case one could also use the facts of how much less expensive a SIP house is in the long run.
The analogy Mr. Ziglar uses gives the example of having to pick a bike for one's child and going with a cheap import rather than a Schwinn (do they even make Schwinns anymore?). He then recites all of the problems of the cheap bike and how after a few years they had spent more on the cheap bike than if they had bought 2 of the better brand so while the initial price was less the cost of going with the cheaper bike was much much more.
[/quote] |
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Marc&Kem
New Member
Posts:50
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| 26 Oct 2009 01:18 PM |
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Good stuff Josh.
Awesome discussion and to the point.
Yeeeesssss the ZigZag.
When the simple to the point question can not get answered there is a point/fact the benificiary does not like. I am passionate about SIP's from the home owner (non experienced) consumer standpoint. But something is missing.
I mean... Something besides educating the industry and breaking the barriers of traditional construction. We can obviously see the benifits. There should be many benifits to the builder too. Less labor, less onstruction time, etc.. Even the architect should have a benifit.
What is missing? We assume it's asociated to cost, mulah, money.. What is missing?............
thanks,
Marc |
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Paulcf
New Member
Posts:27
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| 26 Oct 2009 01:26 PM |
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3 years ago I would explain all the above to a potential client.
Today, I just tell them a cost: either per square foot of wall (about $3.50 depending on thickness) or approx. $xK more than stick.
If they 'get it', then they go SIPs. If they can only afford a Ford then go buy it. Better to lose early than later I say. Thus I focus on the people who have done their homework and can afford the higher (slightly) initial cost for SIPs.
And what strikes me as ironic, we're building a subdivision of homes ALL with SIPs and they are CONSIDERABLY cheaper than stick built. I was sick and tired of trying to explain it to builders who just didn't want to get it. So we're eating our own dog food and the discovery is truly amazing...
There is ALWAYS a market for the cheap, always. But for those who want something better, in home construction, there's SIPs. And we've looked at and can build (and have built) with ICF's...and we CHOSE SIPs... It's that simple.
Anyways, soon, SIPs will be mainstream, lumber is too scare a resource to waste as studs in a house. Go figure. |
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stonecaveman
Basic Member
Posts:123
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| 26 Oct 2009 03:30 PM |
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Marc, What I find interesting about this thread is that it's clear that there
has been a cross-over. SIPs are now being used in applications where
they are lower cost than stick. Housing development and commercial
buildings have both been quoted. It's kinda odd that now if you go and buy a tract home you
may end up with a better (SIP) home than the bespoke homes. Just because the SIP home is more cost-effective to build. What will it take to get the one-off homes to be SIPs? From the department of redundancy department. The local builder wants to build with stick framing because it's profitable for them. If there was a high demand for housing then speed of construction may be a good thing, with low demand, it's bad. I had a builder explain to me that he'd lined up a stick built house that would keep his crew busy through the winter, a SIP house would not do this - he'd be in and out and looking for more work for the crew, which just isn't there. In a similar vein, from an old thread: Posted By brankulo on 03/08/2009 11:41 AM
as for the pricing and material
cost. quote for my sips is $10,00o roughly for R30 8" thick panels ,
plus some more for additional dimensional lumber needed for openings,
plates and so on. labor charged is $4000,
for double staggered
2x4 walls, $2500 for framing material, $1000 labor, $3000 2" closed
cell foam, $500 cellulose for the rest of the cavity. so together $7000.
The builder is charging $3000 MORE for building with SIPs than he would for stick framing - and the stick framing is a staggered wall - essentially double the effort. So the builder is just adjusting the price to make sure that he keeps his profit margin. (The $10,000 charge for SIPs looks way high. Check the thread for details). You can't blame the builder - he's just trying to make a living like the rest of us, but the misconception that SIPs are significantly more expensive than stick comes from quotes like this. The local builder is not going to advoate for SIPs. The architect is not going to advoate for SIPs. But, with the right builder it looks as though comparable homes are cheaper to build with SIPs than with 2x4's. |
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Greg Freyermuth
Basic Member
Posts:131
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| 26 Oct 2009 04:04 PM |
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Again, what is the rule that says SIPs have to cost more? If you quote a home with SIPs and one without, they cost the same. Just run the numbers.
Go line item by line item and look at each with and then without SIPs. I think the comparison will tell the story. We lose on price if we are doing a 200 feet addition. We lose if we are only comparing the framing. But if we tell the story of the total cost savings and back it with data to support it, well now we are cooking with gas on the front burner...
If we are making and installing the panels we win. If we are making and selling to other SIPs guys we can do okay. I am just not sure SIPs are for everyone. I am advocating a forward vertical integration. We do not control the OSB, MgO or the EPS, but if we are the builders we control from the presses forward. Not we as cheap and build a better product.
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| Greg Freyermuth<br>915-256-7563<br>[email protected]<br> www.energreensips.com |
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Danehood
New Member
Posts:4
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| 26 Oct 2009 08:38 PM |
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Thank you all for your responses. I think there is still some room to grow in this matter - some standard pricing would likely be a boon to the industry. But Paul's answer of ≈$3.50/sf wall space is a good start. That gives a customer some way to know where to begin to set their expectations. I think if an answer were more readily available, people might feel more comfortable pursuing SIPs. Throw in all the caveats you like - in this city, I'll typically pay around "x" per sf of wall space for a panel of "y" thickness, made of "z" materials. In the average consumers mind, this information should be readily available. The more it is available, the more readily people will be willing to consider SIPs. Until that time, SIPs dealers are going to seem like that shady dude on the corner trying to sell that brand new boxed TV he "got as a Christmas present, but already had one". That sort of image is not going to help gain wide acceptance. When I asked above for pricing information, the answers I received were helpful and informative, but only one person actually replied with a cost. I'm truly not knocking anyone here - I know that most of these answers wind up being vague by nature of the question. There are often too many variables to give a true cost. An average, however, should not be such a difficult thing to come by, but it seems so difficult to get that in a response. You ask any reputable stick-home framer, they can give you a rough cost in a heartbeat. People trust that. they don't trust skirting the answer. SIP sales people might be surprised to find out how many people would still be interested after you discuss price.
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thomassargent
New Member
Posts:17
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| 27 Oct 2009 08:21 AM |
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I agree, why all the dodging about actual prices? Jeff (panelfusion) and Chris Kavala (Southern SIPS)- What is your average cost for Metal SIPS through your companies? And jstelmack (PanelStar Custom Homes) for OSB Sips? Why are all these builders silent about pricing in their areas? Of course we all know it depends on square footage and r-value but lets see some figures. I just received two quotes for 8 inch OSB SIPS in Maine, one at $4.27 a square foot and the other around $4.50. The project is a 24x36 house, with three full stories, 8" walls and 10" floor and roof. Quotes were $33,500 and $28,500 for all sips, chased and delivered with all adhesives, splines, and screws to complete the job. We are cutting our own windows and doors and standing the sips. I hope this helps some of you with the real world costs. Good luck to all!
-Thomas |
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stonecaveman
Basic Member
Posts:123
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| 27 Oct 2009 08:58 AM |
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We paid closer to $3.50 sq.ft. for 8" OSB SIPs. Drop me a private message if you want to know who and you can see what price you can get. Their closest plant is about 800 miles from you, but that only about $1000 in transportation - assuming you only have one full truckload.
Also, even though you're cutting your own windows, did the supplier do a takeoff from your drawings? If you're putting in windows that need headers, you only need part of a SIP (under the window). These are odd SIPs since the chase often runs the opposite way - it threw us for a while that the strength direction was sideways. If you have a patio door you don't need any SIPs and so on. We probably saved 10% of the raw square footage with a takeoff since we have a bunch of 4x5 (5x4?) panels under windows. |
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Marc&Kem
New Member
Posts:50
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| 27 Oct 2009 02:38 PM |
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Hi guys,
In my opinion, the only thing you can compare are the costs for the outer walls, roof, trusses, or any extras that may be necessary such as ERV's, HVAC or extra labor. Don't even consider things that are not effected by the relative structure.
The stick built should be the average sq ft of the industry or you can't use ROI effectively.
So the question before starting is.... What items or areas are needed to make a comparison. Either make the walls the same efficiencies and don't use ROI or go with an average and calculate utility usage.
The $$$ or numbers don't mean anything until you (as Josh said) level the playing field.
If we could all help establish the playing field or rules first. Then we could contribute some good info to understand.
What does the cost per sq ft include on both structures?
See Ya!
Marc
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 27 Oct 2009 08:45 PM |
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Posted By thomassargent on 10/27/2009 8:21 AM
I agree, why all the dodging about actual prices? Jeff (panelfusion) and Chris Kavala (Southern SIPS)- What is your average cost for Metal SIPS through your companies?
-Thomas Thomas; current steel sip price is $4.20 for 8" panel. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Greg Freyermuth
Basic Member
Posts:131
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| 28 Oct 2009 05:43 PM |
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The cost of a square foot of a 4' x 8' x 6 1/2" OSB/EPS Sip is $3.00.
Less than that if you order more than one square foot... |
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| Greg Freyermuth<br>915-256-7563<br>[email protected]<br> www.energreensips.com |
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Torben
Basic Member
Posts:216
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| 06 Nov 2009 08:52 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 10/27/2009 8:45 PM Posted By thomassargent on 10/27/2009 8:21 AM
I agree, why all the dodging about actual prices? Jeff (panelfusion) and Chris Kavala (Southern SIPS)- What is your average cost for Metal SIPS through your companies?
-Thomas Thomas; current steel sip price is $4.20 for 8" panel.
That's a great price. Do you want to revise the quote you gave me? |
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mforget
New Member
Posts:5
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| 07 Nov 2009 07:59 AM |
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theses pricing discussions are always difficult, how about if we bring this down to more comparable elements,
let's look at a 4x8 panel a roof angle AND WITH A WINDOW CUTOUT.
i just finished my first project (about 70 panels, 2300sqft of wall ) and is about to start the second (will be double the size because its a triplex instead of a SF) ,
this house was stick built, but i built a mini assembly line with staff to pre-build panels (i wanted to understand the exact costs)
panel is
3/4" polyiso tyvek faced (john manville) ~r4
7/16 osb r0.3
2x6 fsc studs
2x8 double headers with 2.5" eps
almost ovs framing
r22 2x6 roxul batts
r3 radiant bubble wrap (thermo foil)
blueskin,
int & ext furring
total panel is about R30 with a full thermal bridge.
including everything from material to assembly, consumables, labor, breaks, vacations, rent, electricity, .... from nothing to a bunch of panels on a pallet on site....
1 panels with angles and window framing and cut-out : $145.00 for this panel.
this makes $4.50 per sqft
except that my panels are a bit heavier, house assembly is quite comparable .
so,
is anybody capable of delivering 70 4x8 panels steel or osb SIPs ~R30 with cuts (let's say all plans are sent in per-panel plans) to montreal,qc,canada for about $10,000 ?
if this is possible, it would make SIPS a real no-brainer... even if there is a 10-15% price difference !
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 07 Nov 2009 08:16 AM |
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Posted By Torben on 11/06/2009 8:52 PM
Posted By cmkavala on 10/27/2009 8:45 PM
Posted By thomassargent on 10/27/2009 8:21 AM
I agree, why all the dodging about actual prices? Jeff (panelfusion) and Chris Kavala (Southern SIPS)- What is your average cost for Metal SIPS through your companies?
-Thomas Thomas; current steel sip price is $4.20 for 8" panel. [/quote] That's a great price. Do you want to revise the quote you gave me? Market changes ever 30 days, we would be glad to update have there been any changes in your plan? |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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| 07 Nov 2009 08:19 AM |
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Posted By Gsfrey on 10/28/2009 5:43 PM
The cost of a square foot of a 4' x 8' x 6 1/2" OSB/EPS Sip is $3.00.
Less than that if you order more than one square foot... What would the price be for a 4'x 27' ? |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Paulcf
New Member
Posts:27
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| 07 Nov 2009 02:25 PM |
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M Forget.
I'll provide 70 SIPs 4X8 R-29 OSB/OSB FOB Ontario for $10,900. You will have to do cutouts on site, very easy. Taxes extra. Shipping not included. I would need to know where you are located to give you a firm shipping quote. If interested, contact me outside the forum. Thank you/Merci beaucoup. |
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JeffD
Basic Member
Posts:282
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| 07 Nov 2009 03:52 PM |
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Thomas,
I do not sell panels I am a designer of metal SIP buildings. I try to stay impartial because I work with several metal SIP companies.
Chris K's mentioned price is very competitive at $4.20/sf 8" thickness EPS core, 26ga. Steel Skins
Structall Building Systems, FL has the same panel for around $5.48/sf
GEFCO, LLC, FL has a 4" thick polyiso core with 26ga steel skins for $5.75/sf.
This panel would be equivalent in R value to the above two panel products.
(On the average house using a 4" thick panel instead of an 8" panel could amount to the area of a large bathroom or walk in closet.)
So, yes lets get some panel pricing out there for the folks to consider.
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| Metal SIP Building Designer<br>jeff@panelfusion(dot com) See us on Facebook |
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