LBear,
I forgot to ask about the HIV air exchange units and are there remote controls for offsetting humidity when we are not there. Paul Ferris

Posted By pferris on 24 Oct 2013 10:13 PM
LBear,
I agree: my SIPS walls are toast and must be removed, wall by wall.
Being burned once, what is  the preferred SIPS wall composition AND what are the OPTIMAL installation materials to offset air, water, wind, and humidity penetration on the Oregon coast? In other words, who's done SIPS that have lasted?
I would hate being burnt twice!
Paul Ferris

Every wood framed home needs to have a rain screen/furring channel on the walls between the exterior cladding and OSB, with OSB SIPs, that is mandatory. The same goes for OSB SIP roofs. If you don't install furring channels, especially in a rainy/humid climate, you are asking for future trouble.

Building Science has an excellent article explaining on how it should be done.

The OSB SIP industry likes to play dumb when it comes to furring the SIP roofs to provide proper drying of the OSB SIPs. They claim it is not necessary because it's a bad "selling point" for them since SIP furring requires additional $$ expenses than a standard OSB & truss roof would not have.

One can always go with steel SIPs for the roof and not have to deal with the water issue but since you are at the Oregon coast, OSB SIPs are readily available in that area.

I've met with lawyers, forensic building inspectors, engineers, and a SIP rep. for 2 1/2 hrs. And there is  NO CONSENSUS on how to fix SIPS walls that showed 25-90% moisture in their outside OSB.
All agreed that the water rotted SIPS will not be removed but fixed.
Has anyone ever heated off the bad OSB, heated channels to add extra 2 bys in the walls, foamed the wood seams , add plywood, a permeable membrane, 3/8th inch rain screen, then cedar shakes? If so, who, when, and how durable is the fix.
Waiting to hear in Oregon.
PF

Posted By pferris on 03 Nov 2013 09:51 PM
I've met with lawyers, forensic building inspectors, engineers, and a SIP rep. for 2 1/2 hrs. And there is  NO CONSENSUS on how to fix SIPS walls that showed 25-90% moisture in their outside OSB.
All agreed that the water rotted SIPS will not be removed but fixed.
Has anyone ever heated off the bad OSB, heated channels to add extra 2 bys in the walls, foamed the wood seams , add plywood, a permeable membrane, 3/8th inch rain screen, then cedar shakes? If so, who, when, and how durable is the fix.
Waiting to hear in Oregon.
PF

SAY WHAT?
never heard of that , but it will be interesting to hear more
I would be real interested to hear how they would keep the wall from collapsing when the skin is removed
was the foam checked for moisture content?

It would be interesting to define "bad osb" in terms of original and current strength. For example, I could imagine osb with minor damage where it would be better to get it dry and cover it with another sheet (glued and screwed). Or osb that is so damaged that it has to be cut out since it prevents a useful bond to the foam.

No doubt that if you add enough wood (like 2x4 furring every 16"), you can make it as strong as a non-SIP wall. Any remaining strength in the SIP is then a bonus.

Gents,
Sorry for the repeated email.
To answer you both, there is NO standard on water moisture content on the outside OSB. Residual strength? How well a 25% water soaked SIPS wall hold up overtime?Remember the moisture contents vary from 25%- 90%. But there is serious erosion on the windward side,and the OSB is so eroded that the cedar shakes fly off!
1) If the the internal OSB is good ( this hasn't been assessed), then the outside,bad OSB can be skinned. Perhaps.This technique remains to be tested and it won't be by me. I want both of you to know that there are NO standard protocol for SIPS wall repair. As the SIPS rep said," It depends."
2) So, how do you assess rain- sogged SIPS walls for their integrity AFTER they dry out? Again I don't want to be the guinea-pig on my house.
I fell like throwing up my hands, reverting to my Viet vet mentality and saying " ______ it." But, that's too easy!Tell me what you think. thanks PF

Posted By pferris on 05 Nov 2013 10:22 PM
Gents,
Sorry for the repeated email.
To answer you both, there is NO standard on water moisture content on the outside OSB. Residual strength? How well a 25% water soaked SIPS wall hold up overtime?Remember the moisture contents vary from 25%- 90%. But there is serious erosion on the windward side,and the OSB is so eroded that the cedar shakes fly off!
1) If the the internal OSB is good ( this hasn't been assessed), then the outside,bad OSB can be skinned. Perhaps.This technique remains to be tested and it won't be by me. I want both of you to know that there are NO standard protocol for SIPS wall repair. As the SIPS rep said," It depends."
2) So, how do you assess rain- sogged SIPS walls for their integrity AFTER they dry out? Again I don't want to be the guinea-pig on my house.
I fell like throwing up my hands, reverting to my Viet vet mentality and saying " ______ it." But, that's too easy!Tell me what you think. thanks PF

pferris,
allowable moisture content is an easy internet search,
OSB is wood , normal moisture content is 5% - 15% , over 20% can support mold growth, over 28% means decay will start
replacing with another SIP wall may not be practical, you may need to replace with woods studs/sheathing/insulation. But it needs replaced it is not good structurally or healthwise
the interior side should be tested immediately , as it could be a health concern

The inside OSB on our SIPS wall problem are good. Further exams reveal moldy floor joists 2 feet back from the rim joint. Buddying up the floor joists can remedy them.  B ut how do you kill the mold without killing ourselves or breathing moldy,residual air?
So now, back to my original question: There is no information from the SIPS manufacturer on how to repair these SIPS walls. What have other contractors done to remedy this situation? Is there a contact in the Northwest who's had the EXPERIENCE of repairing SIPS walls?
I need specifics at this point.
Thanks.
Paul Ferris

Posted By pferris on 09 Nov 2013 02:35 PM
The inside OSB on our SIPS wall problem are good. Further exams reveal moldy floor joists 2 feet back from the rim joint. Buddying up the floor joists can remedy them.  B ut how do you kill the mold without killing ourselves or breathing moldy,residual air?
So now, back to my original question: There is no information from the SIPS manufacturer on how to repair these SIPS walls. What have other contractors done to remedy this situation? Is there a contact in the Northwest who's had the EXPERIENCE of repairing SIPS walls?
I need specifics at this point.
Thanks.
Paul Ferris

Paul,
mold remediation is not a do it yourselfer project, certain molds are lethal, you need to call in the pros
in our state a licesed building contractor cannot remove more than about 10 sq. ft. with out hiring a professional.

Go to the SIPA website (sips.org), there are 54 design professionals listed with at least 4 in your area.

Chris,
Thanks for the advice. This will be part of my settlement.
 But, I find it ALMOST unreasonable, that no one knows how to durably repair water soaked outer OSB board  on a SIPS wall panel?
Even the SIPS manufacturer is stumped.
Happy Veterans' DAY. l'M ONE.
Thanks for your advice. Maybe somebody knows how to repair these wall panels but it's too experimental at this point.
I will persevere though because it's my house.
Paul Ferris

Posted By pferris on 11 Nov 2013 11:02 AM
Chris,
Thanks for the advice. This will be part of my settlement.
 But, I find it ALMOST unreasonable, that no one knows how to durably repair water soaked outer OSB board  on a SIPS wall panel?
Even the SIPS manufacturer is stumped.
Happy Veterans' DAY. l'M ONE.
Thanks for your advice. Maybe somebody knows how to repair these wall panels but it's too experimental at this point.
I will persevere though because it's my house.
Paul Ferris

First, I would like to thank you for your service to this country, it is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

In regards to the SIP repair. A SIP is like an "I-beam" and your SIP has damaged the top of the I-beam portion and the question is can it be repaired or does it have to be replaced? That's where the experts come in but it is uncharted territory for most.

They seem to think it can be repaired and I am sure that they are proceeding cautiously but with confidence that it can be repaired. Chris Kavala is the SIP expert here so he would know best. 

Posted By pferris on 11 Nov 2013 11:02 AM
Chris,
Thanks for the advice. This will be part of my settlement.
 But, I find it ALMOST unreasonable, that no one knows how to durably repair water soaked outer OSB board  on a SIPS wall panel?
Even the SIPS manufacturer is stumped.
Happy Veterans' DAY. l'M ONE.
Thanks for your advice. Maybe somebody knows how to repair these wall panels but it's too experimental at this point.
I will persevere though because it's my house.
Paul Ferris

Paul,
there is no repairing bad OSB, there is ony replacement with a new SIP wall or a new stud wall

Chris,
Are  you sure there is no repairing a bad SIPS wall? What's your evidence? The folks I'm dealing with want 1) SIPS repair 2) standard wall replacement. P Ferris

Posted By pferris on 11 Nov 2013 10:12 PM
Chris,
Are  you sure there is no repairing a bad SIPS wall? What's your evidence? The folks I'm dealing with want 1) SIPS repair 2) standard wall replacement. P Ferris

Paul,
What's your evidence that it can be done?
the problem with analyzing on a forum is you can't see it
I've been in the SIPs business for 20 years and have been a GM for an OSB & Steel SIPs mfg., thats my evidence
the SIPs manufacturer is not "stumped", they know they are in deep do do and are not wanting to bear the cost of full replacement, the folks you are dealing with are looking for the easy way, not the right way
I would certainly build a standard wall first, instead of trying some experiment
most likeley there is some water penetration into the EPS as well from long term exposure this will always be trapped in the wall cavity
if you go along with a sub-standard repair, that is your choice

Chris,
I am sorry for calling your reputation to task. I apologize. You eclipse me in experience. Hands down.
Of course, I do not want a sub standard repair on my SIPS house. No experiments there.
The builder's insurance will want to settle cheaply, i.e., repair the SIPS,etc. SIPS replacement is out of the question.
So rebuilding MONEY is the ISSUE.
I will call for a standard frame construction that will be a 24 R value in its walls.
Wish me luck. And, thanks again for the hard evidence. I will inform you how it turns out.
Be well,
Paul Ferris

Paul,
I hope you have an attorney guiding you thru this negotiation, the notion that you should accept anything less than what you bought is ridiculous

Yes. We have a lawyer who has an opposing lawyer who wants to limit our loss. There will be a battle for the final settlement. I'm just not sure that the final net money after lawyers fees, etc., will be sufficient to rebuild the walls to my expectations and what we paid for as 24 R values SIPS walls. I have 2 kittens and loving wife to keep me sane.
I know I will get what I fight for, but compromise always looms.
This will be my last entry.
Thanks again for your helpful responses.
Paul Ferris