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lambabbey
Basic Member
Posts:148
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06 Apr 2010 09:49 AM |
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Posted By greentree on 06 Apr 2010 09:23 AM
There are 3 methods to reducing sound transmission 1. provide cavity absorbtion 2.increase mass and 3.break the sound vibration path. These are ratings for interior walls, but a standard 2x4 with 1/2 gyp on both sides is STC 34. Add insualtion and it's STC 39. Double the gypsum (2 layers both sides) and its STC 45. Now install hat channel on 1 side and you have STC 56. At STC 30 loud speech can be understood, STC 42 loud speech is audible as a murmur, STC 50 loud speech is not audible. And obviously windows, doors and other penatrations dillute the rating. These ideas can be applied to any wall, I would look into mass loaded vinyl to keep it thin.
My point is that all of these options require an additional stud wall to be built on the interior of the SIPs. This would result in the rooms shrinking at least 3 1/2" on each of the four sides. It's too much to lose in a house as small as I'm building. I was hoping to be able to come up with a soundproofing solution that sacrificed no more than an additional 1 1/2" of space on each wall. Even mass loaded vinyl need to be installed across studs to be effective. John |
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John A Gasbarre<br>Lamb Abbey Orchards<br>Union, ME 04862<br>[email protected]<br> |
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lambabbey
Basic Member
Posts:148
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06 Apr 2010 10:10 AM |
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I think the most viable solution would be go to with 6 1/2" polyurethane SIPs for the outer wall for the greatest R-value per inch, and then add a 3 1/2" stud wall on the inside filled with an insulation product like this: http://building.dow.com/na/en/safetouch/products/index.htm . I'd still get the R-value I'm after for the walls (R-53), and the STC as well (60+), as long as I used a product like QuietRock on the inner stud wall. I'm just not sure how outrageous this solution would be in cost, and I'm also a bit concerned about the horror stories I've heard regarding polyurethane SIPs. John |
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John A Gasbarre<br>Lamb Abbey Orchards<br>Union, ME 04862<br>[email protected]<br> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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06 Apr 2010 10:16 AM |
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My current SIP home is 4" with 1-1/2" steel hi-hat/ drywall, I feel that it is slightly quieter than a conventionally framed 2x4 wall. In my experience with well over 100 SIPs buildings, there is a drastic improvement when going to 6" with hi-hat /drywall. And is what my next personal home will be , if someone is ultra sensitiveto sounds when sleeping the cheap fix is a 50 cent pair of ear plugs |
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Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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lambabbey
Basic Member
Posts:148
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06 Apr 2010 11:09 AM |
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Chris:
You and I apparently have different standards.
For me, it's not about being ultra-sensitive to sounds. It's about building the best home possible, at a reasonable cost, given the technology that exists.
When I have guests visit, I'm not going to expect them to wear earplugs.
It's one thing adjusting to a bad situation; it's another altogether intentionally building one. John
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John A Gasbarre<br>Lamb Abbey Orchards<br>Union, ME 04862<br>[email protected]<br> |
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Torben
Basic Member
Posts:216
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06 Apr 2010 12:03 PM |
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Most of the problems I've heard about sound transmission through SIPs has been more low frequency (pitch) sounds like highway noise (or a Harley motorcycle). The low frequencies are more able to vibrate assemblies. I would assume in these cases the SIP panel then operates as a drum. For low frequencies it appears additional mass is the best solution. High frequency sounds are much easier to attenuate since they are don't travel through assemblies as and they are more directional than low frequency sounds. If you think about a home theatre system it doesn't matter where you place the subwoofer since the sound permeates the room no matter where it is placed (and that is what wakes up the kids). However it makes a huge difference how you place (the higher pitch) satelite speakers. If they are two far from the listener or are off axis the audible volume drops substantially. The audible sound range for people is about 20Hz to 20KHz. The following is the only article I found regarding fowl frequency (I would guess you are somewhere around 0.5-1KHz).
http://rms1.agsearch.agropedia.affrc.go.jp/contents/JASI/pdf/society/54-1218.pdf
The following wiki article shows how attenuation is much greater at higher frequencies (Stoke's Law)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stokes'_law_(sound_attenuation)
I would think growing dense shrubbery between the roosters and the cottage would help since this is a higher pitch sound.
You could use a more massive building system like ICF but I think your weak point is still your windows and doors. I would try locating the most noise sensitive side opposite from the roosters. If this is for guests extra ear plugs is not a bad idea. You will adjust to the noise and many guests may not notice but for the light sleepers it might be a good option to have available.
I couldn't resist the comments on noise control. I spent about 6 weeks overseas on a rural construction project. They had a rooster that crowed throughout the night and there were no walls separating us. There were about 35 of us there for the project who had all nicknamed him "dinner". I wasn't going to kill him but I kept hoping someone would. Surpisingly enough he lived through the project but 20 years later I still remember him. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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06 Apr 2010 09:46 PM |
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Posted By lambabbey on 06 Apr 2010 11:09 AM Chris:
You and I apparently have different standards.
For me, it's not about being ultra-sensitive to sounds. It's about building the best home possible, at a reasonable cost, given the technology that exists.
When I have guests visit, I'm not going to expect them to wear earplugs.
It's one thing adjusting to a bad situation; it's another altogether intentionally building one.
John
John; I can sleep through a thunderstorm, others wake at the slightest noise. Your weak point is not the SIPs for sound proofing , it is the window glazing. I was half joking about the ear plugs, but trying to make a "common sense" point, I certainly would not expend thousands of dollars for the occasional guest, who may or may not find the rooster's 5 am wake up call objectionable. |
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Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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firefox
New Member
Posts:34
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06 Apr 2010 10:27 PM |
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"I would think growing dense shrubbery between the roosters and the
cottage would help since this is a higher pitch sound."
This is why I recomended putting a straw bale wall between the hen house and the house. It would be pretty cheap and you could plant some nice vines to cover it. Maybe rasberries or some such, or just plain ivy.
Worst case scenario you could build an enclosure for the hen house that would absorb all the noise. Certainly a much cheaper solution than messing around with your living structure that has to meet all kinds of other criteria like lighting, heating, etc.
Bruce
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firefox
New Member
Posts:34
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06 Apr 2010 10:52 PM |
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One other technique you could use is sound cancellation electronics. The sound source is in a well defined area. Microphones are installed near the source, and speakers are installed between the source and the problem area. ie your house. The sound is picked up by the microphones, phase shifted so that the sound leaving the speakers is the inverse of the sound coming from the roosters. Thus cancelling the sound. This technology has been around for ages so it should be pretty cheap by now. I suspect that for this situation it would work very well.
This also means that house guests that like to sleep with the windows open will not be bothered by the roosters. Bruce
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lambabbey
Basic Member
Posts:148
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07 Apr 2010 03:30 AM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 06 Apr 2010 09:46 PM
John;
Your weak point is not the SIPs for sound proofing , it is the window glazing. I was half joking about the ear plugs, but trying to make a "common sense" point, I certainly would not expend thousands of dollars for the occasional guest, who may or may not find the rooster's 5 am wake up call objectionable.
Chris: I'm already going with the best window glazing I can get my hands on: http://www.meticulum.com/UUT_Windows.jpg -- Specifically, the Unilux UltraTherm 0.7 in this image. I understand that doors and windows are the points of greatest vulnerability to noise, but I'm already addressing that. I simply want to do so with the walls, too. For the record, I'm not building this home for the occasional guest. I work from a home office. The soundproofing is more for me than anyone. That being said though, it's nice to know that guests would be able to get a good night's rest with potentially 30 roosters crowing 200 feet away. John |
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John A Gasbarre<br>Lamb Abbey Orchards<br>Union, ME 04862<br>[email protected]<br> |
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lambabbey
Basic Member
Posts:148
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07 Apr 2010 03:39 AM |
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Posted By Torben on 06 Apr 2010 12:03 PM
I would think growing dense shrubbery between the roosters and the cottage would help since this is a higher pitch sound.
Posted By firefox on 06 Apr 2010 10:27 PM
"I would think growing dense shrubbery between the roosters and the
cottage would help since this is a higher pitch sound."
This is
why I recomended putting a straw bale wall between the hen house and the
house. It would be pretty cheap and you could plant some nice vines to
cover it. Maybe rasberries or some such, or just plain ivy.
Bruce
Torben & Bruce: Thanks for the feedback. You both make similar suggestions regarding a dense wall between the chicken coop and the house. It makes good sense. I won't be building the barn on this property for at least a year after the cottage goes up, but I think I can lay things out in such a way that the barn itself is the sound break between the house and the chicken coop. If I still need additional sound control, I'll consider buying a tazer. John |
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John A Gasbarre<br>Lamb Abbey Orchards<br>Union, ME 04862<br>[email protected]<br> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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07 Apr 2010 05:35 AM |
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oh I feel another Kevin Bourland in the making |
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Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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lambabbey
Basic Member
Posts:148
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07 Apr 2010 11:23 AM |
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Chris: What is the point of making an antagonistic comment? Does it really forward anything? John |
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John A Gasbarre<br>Lamb Abbey Orchards<br>Union, ME 04862<br>[email protected]<br> |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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07 Apr 2010 12:43 PM |
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John;
That was not directed towards you, but funny you thought so? |
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Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Torben
Basic Member
Posts:216
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07 Apr 2010 01:27 PM |
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Serious also makes a slightly more insulative window and designs some specifically for sound attenuation (...as long as money is no object). http://index.seriouswindows.com/residential/quietwindows.html |
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wes
Advanced Member
Posts:810
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08 Apr 2010 08:35 AM |
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I am sometimes surprised at the flow of comments on any given subject. Who would have thought that a question about chickens would have engendered 33 (34?) comments. John, my last suggestion on the subject is this. If you don't love everything about chickens, maybe you should think about cows. |
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Wes Shelby<br>Design Systems Group<br>Murray KY<br>[email protected] |
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greentree
Advanced Member
Posts:587
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08 Apr 2010 08:54 AM |
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Posted By lambabbey on 06 Apr 2010 09:49 AM
Posted By greentree on 06 Apr 2010 09:23 AM There are 3 methods to reducing sound transmission 1. provide cavity absorbtion 2.increase mass and 3.break the sound vibration path.
These are ratings for interior walls, but a standard 2x4 with 1/2 gyp on both sides is STC 34. Add insualtion and it's STC 39. Double the gypsum (2 layers both sides) and its STC 45. Now install hat channel on 1 side and you have STC 56. At STC 30 loud speech can be understood, STC 42 loud speech is audible as a murmur, STC 50 loud speech is not audible. And obviously windows, doors and other penatrations dillute the rating.
These ideas can be applied to any wall, I would look into mass loaded vinyl to keep it thin. My point is that all of these options require an additional stud wall to be built on the interior of the SIPs. This would result in the rooms shrinking at least 3 1/2" on each of the four sides. It's too much to lose in a house as small as I'm building.
I was hoping to be able to come up with a soundproofing solution that sacrificed no more than an additional 1 1/2" of space on each wall. Even mass loaded vinyl need to be installed across studs to be effective.
John
Not really. Mass loaded vinyl is used under carpet against a subfloor which is the same principle on a sip wall. Hat channel doesn't need a separate wall and doubling drywall doesn't need a separate wall, so no problem amigo. |
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cmkavala
Veteran Member
Posts:4324
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08 Apr 2010 09:24 AM |
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Wes;
cows are way worse, their mooooooooo's are a much lower frequency, you would definitely need the earplugs on top of all the other precautions.
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Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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geruta
New Member
Posts:9
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08 Apr 2010 10:50 AM |
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i used some stuff called green glue http://www.greengluecompany.com/ that seemed to be helpful in my non sip house. - applied over existing drywall, noticeably cut down on street noise. same idea as quietrock, but DIY and could put a glue/damping layer between the sip osb and drywall. if not quiet enough, then add another layer, etc cheers, george |
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Jelly
Veteran Member
Posts:1017
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08 Apr 2010 05:17 PM |
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Wes, Chris, John, I understand ostrich are relatively silent, as well as flightless. And they lay *HUGE* eggs, right? I think they spit, though. |
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Bigrig
New Member
Posts:92
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08 Apr 2010 05:41 PM |
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I don't think they spit, that is llamas. They do vomit in their water (which will need to be cleaned up on a regular basis) and they are dangerously strong kickers. They are fairly aggressive creatures. Also their eggs may be large, but I don't think they lay that many. |
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