bwheeler1
Registered Users
Posts:33
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| 03/30/2008 9:40 PM |
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Article by the Oregon Department of Energy. Seems like a balanced article and informative.
http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/CONS/RES/tax/Radiant.shtml
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:311
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| 03/30/2008 11:33 PM |
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the houses he is talking about, in a real heating climate, are homes under 10 BTUs/sqft under design conditions. radiant floor does make a lot less sense there for sure. I often go to panel radiators, radiant ceiling, even very low temp baseboard in those cases.
he overstates some issues IMHO, but overall I give that article an A, it's very good. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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lambabbey
Registered Users
Posts:71
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| 03/31/2008 5:03 AM |
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That is a good article, especially for someone who's wired to lean in the direction of overkill. Like myself.
John |
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John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
PO Box 623
Union, ME 04863
E-mail: orchard@lambabbey.com |
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warmsmeallup
Registered Users
Posts:49
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| 03/31/2008 6:13 PM |
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That is a great article and very true.
We had a client last year who, after buying plans for and starting construction on a 4800sf Dome Home, he found out that we could not effectively warm his polished concrete floors without over-heating his home. Memory serves, a HLC called for 2 wattts psf. If we installed it for floor warming without striping, he would have had to keep the windows open in the dead of winter!
The client couldn't grasp the problem and still wanted it installed but I knew in the end he would be very unhappy. We had to walk away from that one, but I sleep better for it.
I spoke with him a few weeks ago. He's very happy with the home but hates having to wear slippers. Even with a super-insulated slab he says it (the slab) "feels" like it's still 60*. |
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Comfort Radiant Heating |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:311
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| 03/31/2008 9:18 PM |
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| good point warms. a room temperature floor is more comfortable than a less-than-room-temp floor.. for sure. hey, poetry ;) |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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Farmboy
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Posts:69
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| 03/31/2008 9:50 PM |
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| Warms, So did the ex-potential client hate having to wear slippers because he didn't install radiant floors OR did he install the radiant floor, but didn't use it because it turned his home into an oven? Dave |
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warmsmeallup
Registered Users
Posts:49
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| 04/01/2008 11:29 AM |
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He was actually going to buy a hydronics system for $25k. He called me back to see why they could and I (low voltage electric) wouldn't. I just said he should ask the hydronics salesman to put in writing that the system will keep his floors warm without striping and not over heat the house.
He installed a few through-the-wall units as, baseboard can't make turns!! |
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Comfort Radiant Heating |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Registered Users
Posts:15
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| 04/15/2008 6:12 PM |
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| Outdoor reset. |
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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bwheeler1
Registered Users
Posts:33
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| 04/24/2008 10:34 AM |
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I think I may have a solution.
I finally spoke to a contractor that is progressive and does installations in my area. He advised me that the best kind of a system for my situation may be a combination heater like Triangle Tube which does forced air heating, radiant heating and domestic hot water all in one unit.
http://www.triangletube.com/Library/LibraryCH.htm
Has anyone have any experience with this manufacturer or recent experience with a combination heater? |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:311
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| 04/24/2008 11:14 AM |
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what's the point?
If you're going to do radiant, why do you want scorched hot dust? |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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bwheeler1
Registered Users
Posts:33
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| 04/24/2008 11:37 AM |
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If anyone wanted to do radiant throughout the house, it was me! However, I'm not an HVAC specialist, I have done a lot of investigation and I think there is a point where I have to start being practical.
Our zoning requires that we install Air Conditioning (we are next to railway tracks) and we have to run ducts for ventilation. Also, there isn't anyone in the area that can supply/install gypcrete and we could almost buy a forced air system for what we would pay for Warmboard alone (that was a tough one). Plus, I have reservations about the effectiveness of some of the other radiant "ideas" for a wood subfloor.
We are pouring a slab in the basement, which will be cold if we don't heat it somehow. We have to run ducts for A/C and ventilation; and radiant on the main floor is problematic and/or prohibitively expensive.
Considering all of the above, I came to the conclusion that hydronic in the basement floor and a natural gas HVAC system is probably the way to go.
Am I missing something? |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:311
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| 05/01/2008 11:26 PM |
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I am not sure I would buy a hydronic system just to heat the basement. Perhaps, if it's large and finished. Pipe the concrete, sure, for future use probably, or perhaps hook it up to a cheap heat source if it's well insulated.
I'd strongly consider radiant ceilings or panel radiators though for much better distribution efficiency then you'll ever get in an air system. Sure, it may not be radiant floor, but let's not go crazy with this forced air talk ;) You can still run a nice mod con on radiators/ceiling in full condensing mode all year long and still achieve great comfort. Radiators with TRVs... simple, and every radiator is a zone with constant flow, that's not bad stuff at all.
It doesn't have to be mercedes or Yugo.. there are middle paths too.
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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bwheeler1
Registered Users
Posts:33
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| 05/02/2008 8:50 AM |
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What about air conditioning and ventilation?
The reason I started talking about forced air was due to the requirement we have to install A/C (our zoning) and we need a ventilation system anyway. Plus, if we don't put some heat in the slab it will be cold and at least 2/3 of our basement will be finished.
From what i understand, there are some very efficient condensing bolier systems that will provide hydronic heat, domestic hot water and forced air heating. One manufacturer I've heard about is Triangle Tube. |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:311
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| 05/02/2008 9:31 AM |
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I didn't say you'd get rid of ductwork; you still need vent and AC. that doesn't mean FHA coils are equivalent to all hydronics in heating comfort though, and running a couple of pumps uses a lot less electricity than fans, for heating.
not that you can't do FHA, that is, just saying there is a little more to consider than the fact that ducts are there so obviously you have to heat with FHA. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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bwheeler1
Registered Users
Posts:33
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| 05/02/2008 9:39 AM |
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If we have an air handler for A/C, would the economics still prove in for radiant heating on the main floor? Do you have some examples of radiant panels? I have no idea what they even look like...
One ICF house we saw yesterday had a hot water radiator against the wall under the window in their dining room for supplementary heat. It seemed to be quite compact. |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:311
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| 05/02/2008 10:01 AM |
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economics? what do you mean, will you see payback? Probably not, but maybe, depending on energy costs and what, specifically, you do for a heat source and emitter combination. Note I'm talking about panel radiators and radiant ceiling which are both lower cost radiant options than an equivalent output of radiant floor in most cases. Radiators can be compact or large depending on a whole lot of factors.
Will it be more comfortable? if done properly, yes. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
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louksf
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 05/03/2008 11:19 AM |
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Brian...I emailed you this through GreenBuilding talk but I don't think you received it. Here it is again.
May 2, 2008
Our water heater is manufactured in Fergus, Ont. by GSW with the trade name John Wood. It is a "Direct Vent Gas Fired Water Heater" - model no. 6G50TBFP-05. The cost was $1,000.00. I purchased it from a local plumber who is a seasonal resident and I think I probably paid to much - I don't know. As I mentioned it is a compartmentalized unit which keeps domestic water separate from the infloor heating water.
Radiantec did do my design and layout plan. They also provided me with everything I needed for the installation but the chap who installed it said I needed other valves and a pump for an additional $700.00 (thats where I believe the overcharging came in). But nevertheless the setup is a good one and has been running flawlessly since last Oct. I purchased everything that Radiantec said I needed (except for the heater). I installed the water line prior to the cement pour by myself - it is not complicated - however I looked at all the valves, pumps etc., and decided it would be best if I had a professional hook it up. Included in the $700. I previously mentioned was $300.00 labour for the install.
The complete materials Radiantec sent me cost less than $1,700.00 plus exchange at the time. The packages arrived at my door by UPS and was flawless - all I did was sign for it. I was not involved with customs or any of that rigmarole. Based on my experience I am a big fan of Radiantec and would definitely do it again. The few times I made service calls the results were instant. They have technicians on hand 24/7. The Polaris line of heaters are distributed by Radiantec and can range up to $3,000. They told me I definitely did not need that and a conventional high efficiency heater was more than adequate. And I can say they were absolutely right. The system is remarkable.
I had a contractor (friend of the family) do the ICF installation. It is pretty basic stuff as well. It is no different than building with Lego kids toys. We have friends on Manitoulin Island who constructed their ICF by themselves (husband & wife). The ICF I chose is made by NUDURA (www.nudura.com). What I liked about nudura was the 8' long blocks X 18" with plastic inserts which just unfolded and the rebar snapped in. At the time, none of the other manufactures had those features - mostly smaller blocks and placing the rebar was a pain in the butt and a time consuming process.
As you can tell I am a very happy camper and would do exactly the same thing again.
Good luck with your new home.
Fred Louks
p.s. If you want to email me direct my address is louksf@ontera.net
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:311
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| 05/04/2008 12:34 PM |
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Fred,
what exactly makes that a "conventional high efficiency" heater? That's a standard 0.59 energy factor water heater with a 42kBTU input, nothing 'high efficiency' about it.
you're running 15 to 20% lower efficiency than you would with a mod/con heat source. the question of whether or not you "need that" is answered by your heat load. Did anyone do one?
I surmise from the cost of your materials that you're either doing a fairly small house (so the water heater might not have been the wrong choice in your case), or you have pretty noticeable heat striping on your floors and you should have gone with a higher efficiency unit. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
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louksf
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 05/04/2008 1:09 PM |
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Hi Rob...Sounds like I have stepped on some toes. I didn't say that the heater was a "conventional high effieciency heater". Radiantec did a heat loss/gain plan for me. As a double check I also had a licensed heating professional in Oakville, Ont. who does nothing but heat plans for both residential and commercial/industrial - he confirmed Radiantec's recomendations.
I'm sorry, being a lay person I don't understand your "jargon" description of a "mod/con heat source".
You are accurate when you suggest a small house with the infloor heating installed in the 1160 sq. ft. ground floor. There is no heat striping of the floor!
During the initial planning stages of our house, I had three independent heating contractors quote me in the $10,000. range. These quotes did not include furnace or water heater/boiler. I quickly deduced that I would not have a problem doing it myself (I have the time) for substantially less and enjoyed doing it, with excellent results.
So please don't tell me that I should have gone with a higher efficiency unit.
My choice to go with an American supplier bothered me, but by the same token the heating trades in Canada priced themselves out of the market - 'The Canadian Way.
Thanks for your comments Rob. |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:311
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| 05/04/2008 2:49 PM |
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Hi Fred,
It's not a toe stepping question, I speak up only because MOST people building homes will NOT be best served with a conventional water heater as a heat source, even if the initial installation price were wildly different. Math shows that some are, and you very well might be one of them. Generally, for a home in a 7500 HDD climate (like my area) and less than 20kBTUs/hr max demand I would use a water heater much like the one you chose. But, that's not a typical situation for most people.. even most people building ICF. so please understand my desire for greater precision in the commentary... you might be happy with this system, with good cause, but most people would be missing a prime opportunity for savings.
You did, however, call it a "conventional high efficiency unit", right after you talked about the Polaris (3rd paragraph, near the end). Did I misunderstand something?
I'd like to check this out; What is your design load (BTUs/hr under design conditions), and what outdoor temp was it calculated at?
And from the rest of us who also need energy resources; thank you for building small. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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