BigMorty
New Member
Posts:5
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| 29 Apr 2008 12:17 PM |
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I am doing a fair amount of remodling of a house I bought. It is only 1600 sq ft (cottage on a lake) and I will live in it for many years to come, probably until they "roll me out"! :-)
I am removing all of the current flooring (carpet, vinyl, cheap hardwood) and replacing it with 3/4 inch Hickory wide plank flooring (5-10" inch variable width, 7-10 feet long). My question is regarding what would be the BEST thing for me to do so I have the most even, comfortable heating and would like to reduce my energy costs as much as possible. I am willing to spend more up front to have a great result but I am not rich so cost is still a factor.
My contractor has experience using Stadler's Climate Panel. I think these are the same as the Wirsbo Quick Trak but not sure. He is familiar with WarmBoard but thinks ripping out my subfloor and buy the more expensive WarmBoard product would be a costly thing that is not required.
I am concerned with the Climat Panel, the aluminum is .012, which seems reasonable (only half what WarmBoard is) but my big concern is that the aluminum is on the underside of the board, which puts it between my subfloor and the panel. Also, from the pictures I saw it does not look like the aluminum is actually in the track!
Please help, I want to make sure I use a good product, I am only tearing up my floor once this century!
Are there other GOOD options out there. Rob, what would you install in my case?
Thanks,
Mike |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 29 Apr 2008 05:27 PM |
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climate trak and quik trak are the same thing.
I would opt for heavy gauge plates in the joist bay instead of that stuff in any regular subfloor situation. It will be cheaper and perform better.
However, the most important question is, what is your heat load, per square foot? |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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BigMorty
New Member
Posts:5
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| 30 Apr 2008 12:28 AM |
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Thanks for the reply. I will find out my heat load.
I really don't want to do anything in the joist bay, I want to keep my water temp as low as possible.
What are the good options for on top of my current subfloor?
Mike |
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warmsmeallup
Basic Member
Posts:131
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| 30 Apr 2008 06:57 AM |
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If you don't already own the boiler, low voltage Zmesh staples down to the sub-floor and you can install anything you want over the top with no height changes or heat problems. Since it's electric, it is even 100% efficient heat throughout and will not get any warmer than 85 degrees anywhere.
You can nail through it anywhere without issue so your wide plank won't be affected by the heat or cost more to install. Most important, there's no water leaks to consider! |
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| <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com" target="_blank">COMFORT RADIANT HEATING, LLC</a><br> <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/zmeshinterior.php" target="_blank">Floor Warming</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/roof-deicing.php" target="_blank">Roof De-Icing</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/snow-melting.php" target="_blank">Snow Melting</a> |
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BigMorty
New Member
Posts:5
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| 30 Apr 2008 09:57 AM |
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Thanks, I thought electric was usually used for individual room, floor heating, not whole house heating. I was goign down the hydronics road! Has anyone installed the RAUPANEL or Roth Panel products? Not sure what the cost is for these, are they cheaper than WarbBoard. Do they perform close to WarmBoard? Mike |
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warmsmeallup
Basic Member
Posts:131
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| 30 Apr 2008 10:05 AM |
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Yup, that was in the past. Zmesh has changed that. Look it up on the net and you will see what the product looks like and what makes it unique.
We have it installed as primary heat in 3 homes now and many additions as primary. |
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| <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com" target="_blank">COMFORT RADIANT HEATING, LLC</a><br> <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/zmeshinterior.php" target="_blank">Floor Warming</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/roof-deicing.php" target="_blank">Roof De-Icing</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/snow-melting.php" target="_blank">Snow Melting</a> |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 30 Apr 2008 11:32 AM |
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Raupanel is more expensive. Roth is less expensive, but typically I just use it over concrete and installing nailed wood over it kind of stinks.
You dont get warmboard performance for significantly less money. You can get less performance for less money, and the question is entirely what performance you really need.
as always with electric the issue is one of current situation vs future flexibility. You can decide what work for you. Me, I'm obsessed with always leaving options open. I have a client in Juneau right now who is seeing electric quadruple in price for a year or two due to a freak avalanche...
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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BigMorty
New Member
Posts:5
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| 30 Apr 2008 06:59 PM |
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First, I want to say that you guys ROCK for explaining these things to us radiant newbies! Thanks much for the help on this confusing, long-term, expensive adventure!
I don't like the electric direction so I will focus on the hydronic method.
I have a decent crawl space but dont want to install under my sub-floor. I was hoping to find a panel that would work for me on top of my current sub-floor.
Rob, you have mentioned in other posts that climate trak/quik trak is not a good option, why is this? In your first response to me on this topic you said you would do in-joist before using climate trak\quik trak! Really! It is that bad?
Warmboard is a tough one for me not just because of the panel cost, but I also have to remove a decent sub-floor also. Adds up to even more bucks! I have a TON of windows in my 1600 sq ft house, so I bet the heat loss is sizable. Can you say what you would suggest without me having exact numbers? Roth or Raupanel?
Thanks again,
Mike
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warmsmeallup
Basic Member
Posts:131
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| 01 May 2008 06:37 AM |
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Morty:
I'm not looking to beat a dead horse, your choice is what you you like. I'm ok with that. But I just have to reply to Rob.
Rob:
I have said, and I hope to continue to say that if I were to recommend to a client that their best choice for their application is to install a hydronic system in their home, you'd be the man to talk to. You knowledge about it shows.
However (yup, here it comes)..Juneau !! Avalanche !! Are you a Repuplican? When you start resorting to scare tactics, it scares me! I would be willing to bet good money that the hydronic homeowners in Juneau effected by that avalanche can't even get oil or propane! How much do you think they would be willing to pay for electric if they can get it!? Avalanche..jeez man.
A refinery in the gulf shuts down for a few days because of inclement weather and the price of oil FOR EVERYONE in the lower 48 goes up a dime a gallon and never receeds. There are so many comparisons against oil or gas that I'm surprised at you for using Juneau as your "reason" for not using electric. Maybe I should just be happy that you have to result to scare tactics...??
You really need to install some Zmesh. Then we'll talk. |
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| <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com" target="_blank">COMFORT RADIANT HEATING, LLC</a><br> <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/zmeshinterior.php" target="_blank">Floor Warming</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/roof-deicing.php" target="_blank">Roof De-Icing</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/snow-melting.php" target="_blank">Snow Melting</a> |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 01 May 2008 09:47 AM |
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In Junau, an avalanche took out the connection between the city and the hydroelectric dam. they are running their electrical off of diesel generators right now (the city, not individuals). Needless to say, diesel isn't cheap right now. That is definitely an extreme example, but I just got the email from my client yesterday morning so it was a pretty sharp example of the advantage of hydronics: they might have payback on installing an oil boiler just for one or two winters! If they had done electric, they would have no recourse. that's fact. You can call it a scare tactic, and if I were trying to present this as a case that is likely to affect people, I 'd agree.
Obviously, most people do not have to deal with such strange interruptions in their service. But the fact is, you can't predict the future. That is why I am a wethead... I don't have to. You can always heat water with something. You are free to assume that electric resistance heating will always be the best choice moving forward from here. And I am free to disagree. We're both guessing about the future; I just choose to be flexible, because I know I'm not good at guessing the future.
I would never have guessed electricity would quadruple for any period of time in Juneau, this year, to pick one example. ]\ |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 01 May 2008 09:47 AM |
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sorry morty: heavy plates in a joist with a 3/4" subfloor will outperform quik trak. Warmboard can go over a subfloor, but if you are installing over a subfloor I would choose raupanel over roth panel. |
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BigMorty
New Member
Posts:5
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| 01 May 2008 11:05 AM |
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Thanks Rob. Will look into in-joist and Rau. |
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chakr
New Member
Posts:6
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| 15 Sep 2008 10:37 PM |
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I posted this question in another forum and didn't get any response:
Has anyone looked into using Radaint Shield like Tech Shield and routing it instead of using Warmboard? Any thoughts?
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 16 Sep 2008 01:14 PM |
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Most DIYers and all contractors lack the time to manufacturer their own panels using a router. The engineering is done for you and available from half a dozen manufacturers with documented results. Unless you are in the development stage of your own line of radiant floor products.... |
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 16 Sep 2008 01:16 PM |
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As for Juneau, Rob is right as usual. It cost very little to insure you have choices in the future. Hydronics rules!
MA
hehehee |
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 16 Sep 2008 01:16 PM |
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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chakr
New Member
Posts:6
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| 16 Sep 2008 01:44 PM |
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I can get unskilled labor to do the routing on the panels.
There is a big difference between $2 per board and $6 per board.
So, if routing labor is not the issue, what do you think about using Radaint Shield like Tech Shield and routing it instead of using Warmboard? |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 16 Sep 2008 01:53 PM |
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that is not even remotely comparable. the aluminum layer on foam products is just foil. not really conductive. Also, this is not a case for a "radiant barrier", which requires an airspace to work, it is a case for direct contact aluminum for conduction to the finish floor surface.
typically if you want to DIY a method, you do what's called a "sandwich", which is strips of plywood infill, with aluminum plates and PEX-AL-PEX. that is a lot cheaper than warmboard, and you sacrifice some performance and work a lot harder to get it in. but when labor is cheap and performance doesn't have to be top of the line, it's a fine method.
You can emulate things like quik trak as well, though in that case you aren't saving much money over regular sandwich and you are crippling its performance compared to an over-infill plate sandwich.
picture attached. Some have used routers instead of strips, but I can't imagine any case where that is really quicker than a "strip production" situation. But, I'm not big into carpentry myself and carpenters disagree. so evaulate as you will. |
 Attachment: longsand4small.jpg
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chakr
New Member
Posts:6
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| 16 Sep 2008 02:17 PM |
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Thanks, Rob. I am just trying to spec a cheaper way to install for a framing/flooring contractor. I am aware Radiant Shield does not have much of much of an aluminum layer but figured it would be more conductive than not having any kind of heat spreader. Would you agree?
In the current application, I could spec:
Tech Shield (with embedded Pex Al Pex routed in) + thinset + DITRA + thinset + stone
I understand this will not be as good as Warmboard but wouldn't you rate this kind of installation higher than "stapled up" or "hanging in the joist" installation?
If this is OK, I can shave off $3 per sq. ft in installation costs (of course much higher to the customer after the contractor margin) |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 16 Sep 2008 02:30 PM |
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the tech shield is not helping you here except as downward insulation if you need it above the subfloor for some reason. I am also very doubtful this install would be approved by DITRA and I certainly wouldn't want to have just this supporting my stone floor.
the sandwich method is your best low material cost/high labor/good performance alternative. it usually works out to a similar kind of cost as what you are considering.
Of course, you could just increase the depth of your mud bed and do a 6" o.c. install or what have you too. |
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