pepperworks
New Member
Posts:19
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| 18 Jan 2009 02:51 PM |
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We have a ranch--3300 sq w/ 3300 sq unfinished bsmt. (the bsmt walls are a Superior wall type system, insulated w/ R30 batting and foil barrier, but the ceiling is not insulated)
Radiant floor heating on both levels- the main floor has a metal deck with 3" of concrete.
The water heater is a Polairs 50 gal which seems to never keep up.
The house is SIP both walls and roof.
The flooring system is broken down to 5 zones. 2 in the basement the other 3 on the main floor.
I have the thermostats set at 58° in 2 zones and 60° in the main living area. The basement is not turned on for fear we wont be able to afford the gas bill. Right now our gas bill is a little over $200 per month
This by no means keeps the house "toasy warm", but it does keep it warm enough with a sweatshirt or 2 and keeps us from going completly in debt to the gas company.
ideally the house feels comfortable around 65° but at that our gas bills would be in the $500 or more range.
The system was working as best as it could until friday.. I left for the day and when I got home that evening the house was 53° the burner would not stay on and the heater kept locking itself out. (the temp outside was -15 so I guess I should be thankful that is all it dropped to.)
The tech service I got from Polaris wasnt very helpful, but I am not sure how much you can do over the phone. We have been dealing with it all weekend, 53° keeps you on your toes!! Brisk!
One of my concerns is... the guy we hired to put in the tubing system was a crook and I fear he didnt do it right. The tubes from the main floor are not all in the concrete. (I can send a pic for a visual). I worry that we are losing heat on the return that should be coming through the concrete.
If anyone has suggestions, comments or just wants to add their 2¢ worth I would greatly appreciate any help.. |
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bartman99
New Member
Posts:57
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| 19 Jan 2009 12:55 PM |
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Hi, My reply doesn't do much to help you (sorry), only to show that the Polaris can keep up. We have a 3000sqft well insulated home (stick built, not SIPS though), with staple up + plates on the main floor and 2nd floor and in the slab tubing in the basement. We have a 34 gal. Polaris (closed system) with 4 zones. Polaris also does all DHW. The water heater is able to keep up fine. SInce it's LP, it's difficult to accurately access month use (and the fact that our clothes dryer and stove also both use LP), but we typically goes though 350-500gallons every 3-5 months (about 3 fills per year). So yes, a Polaris does produce sufficient BTU's. Others will tall you you need a heat load calc to see if you are in the correct BTU ballpark (you do) and likely someone to come out and look at your system. You can find local RFH contractors here: RPA search. Good luck. B |
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pepperworks
New Member
Posts:19
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| 19 Jan 2009 01:49 PM |
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Our system is an open system. When the heating system comes on my polaris runs every couple of minutes, pretty much day and night. Something just doesnt seem right with this system. I have had 2 people who supposedly knew about the system come out and their respons was that we need to isulate the ceiling in the basement.
I have called the company that I bought the Polaris from and he assures me the polaris is running right. I just doesnt seem efficient at all... I'll keep searching.. |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 19 Jan 2009 02:55 PM |
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you need to insulate the basement ceiling. It is typical to drop lines below the subfloor for supply/return and in an insulated basement ceiling cavity should be no concern at all.
3300 square feet of uncontrolled heat loss to the basement is potentially quite a drain. how warm is it down there right now? |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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pepperworks
New Member
Posts:19
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| 19 Jan 2009 04:10 PM |
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the heat is not turned on to the basement zones. I would guess the temperature to be around 60 in the basement |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 20 Jan 2009 03:31 PM |
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Posted By pepperworks on 01/19/2009 4:10 PM
the heat is not turned on to the basement zones. I would guess the temperature to be around 60 in the basement In which case, if you set the basement zones to 60 (the way you have the first floor zones set), they'd never fire up at all!
NRTRob has it right- some amount of insulation to separate the basement from the first floor is a necessary first step. But it's probably not the primary heat-loss point. (R30 walls with a minimum of window & door area is far less lossy than most first-floor construction.) And it's probably not related to your fundamental issue: ".. the burner would not stay on and the heater kept locking itself out" . I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that(?).
If in normal operation the burner keeps going on/off it's an indication that it's raising the water temp to it's setpoint just fine, but if it's not keeping the house up to temp it's either a design deficiency (not enough radiation area to supply the heat required, or a fixed water temp that is set too low) or a control deficiency (not raising the water temp setpoint sufficiently in response to the outdoor temp, presuming that it's designed to work that way.) If a manual-J type heat loss calc tells you that the burner is big enough to keep up, it very likely will, unless there's something else wrong. (That something else could be the insulation or air sealing of the place, independent of the heating system.) But if there's some safety interlock that's shutting down the burner & keeping it off (which is one interpretataion of your words), that's a seperate issue...
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pepperworks
New Member
Posts:19
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| 21 Jan 2009 10:08 AM |
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The polaris will go though a 2 step cycle, on the second step the burner should come on and heat the water. It will try 3 times and if there is something wrong it will lock itself out as a safety measure. I spoke to the tech again for Polaris and he had me remove the air filter to try and suck in some of the warm air from the basement, his thought was that because of the extreme cold there is too much condensation in the vent and it's not allowing the system to work properly. The water heater is set at 140 and the temp outside has been 20 and under for the past few weeks.
I have been "dealing" with this nightmare for the past 5 days and last night around 3 am I woke up to a loud thumping noise in my basement. When the burner was trying to come on the air vent was jerking around like crazy.. Yes, I know that sounds crazy... I had to take the cover off the air filter again to get it to stop.
I finally got the temp. up in 2 of the zones from 53 to 58 and the main floor to 58 but it has taken 3 days to get it there and keeping it there causes the system to run non-stop. And at 58 it still chilly.
The heat load was calculated by the company who sold the "package" and radiant floor is all they do. So I believe they have given me the right stuff.
I guess I had much higher hopes for this system and till now I am getting the same results as my 20 yr old stick built, poorly insulated house.. High gas bills and cold rooms.. the only difference is now I am out a lot more money.. |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 21 Jan 2009 10:36 AM |
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Something is definitely wrong with the polaris installation. you still need to insulate that 1st floor and a 60 degree basement (warmer than your first floor) would seem to indicate you have a more effective radiant ceiling than a radiant floor right now. But you've got issues with this polaris a gas tech with a combustion analyzer should be reviewing at least. |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 21 Jan 2009 11:07 AM |
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What Rob said...
Are you at a higher altitude? (above 5k')? Burners need to be adjusted to accommodate the lower air pressure at higher altitudes in order to achieve reasonable efficiency(and it will typically be lower than at sea level). There output will be derated- can't supply the same BTU output at 10k' that you can at sea level, etc..
Sealed combustion units can sometimes have issues of frost accumulation on the inlet causing poor combustion efficiency if there isn't enough separation between the exhaust & inlet, or if the inlet is located too near a clothes dryer exhaust, etc..
Could be any number of installation issues or an out-and-out defective unit causing the problem- best not to try and debug it on the web. |
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pepperworks
New Member
Posts:19
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| 21 Jan 2009 12:39 PM |
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I am in Ohio, we are not at a high altitude.. My exhaust and inlet are within each other on the outside of the house, then split off back inside to the heater. Does that make sense?
I have had 3 "pros" come to the house as well have spoke to tech service over the phone and I still have no resolution.. No one in my area services Polaris, the common response I get is.. "hmmm, I've never see one of these before.. I am not sure what it could be". I have had a plumber, radiant floor heating "expert" and an electrician look at it.
I have come to the web to see if there is anyone out there that has come across the same sort of problem... Or who is familiar with the polaris. |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 21 Jan 2009 12:48 PM |
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that's a concentric vent, very normal. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem with the gas, gas valve, gas mixture, vent length, combustion air, condensate, igniter, etc etc.
I guess getting Polaris to send someone out or refer someone is your best bet. This is over DIY pay grade, potentially dangerous, and obviously costly to run as is. The company that sold you this, IMHO, did you no great service in doing so.
And this, kids, is why buying expensive gas appliances online is a bad idea. Local serviceability is concern number one! Not to beat you up about it, just to illustrate the point to other readers making similar decisions. Sorry I/We cannot easily diagnose this issue. |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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pepperworks
New Member
Posts:19
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| 21 Jan 2009 01:00 PM |
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TRUST ME, there are a lot of things I'd never do again!!! I think polaris knows there is something wrong but doesnt want to fess up--- so they keep giving me the run around. Between the comapny that sold it to me and Polaris, they got their story straight and their stickin' to it..
I appreciate all the time everyone has taken to respond to me.. |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 21 Jan 2009 03:37 PM |
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Find a new friend in the industry who can fix your problem.
The factory should have an on-line list of factory trained individual to which they could refer you.
But Rob is right as usual. |
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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Blueridgecompany.com
Advanced Member
Posts:656
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| 25 Jan 2009 01:08 PM |
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What I wonder is why an open loop system first, Bad bad design. Second there are 2 designers on the web that I know about that use/sell polaris units, one is for some unknown reason using 3/4 pex in 500 foot runs as a standard for staple up, the other 1/2 standard with a 500 foot run, both will recommend 18 inch pattern, wrong again. to this the question is what pipe pattern? are the upper floors vaulted, large glass surface area?
The other observation I have is you are heating 6,000 sq feet, with no proper heat loss we could make this simple computation 3,000+3000=6000x30BTU per sq ft =180,000 btu needed, possibly. What is the btu rating of your Polaris - stack loss? did these problems start when the weather this winter got real cold.
I agree insulate between floors, Isolate the lower floor from the upper, If you are on a budget and can not afford sheet rock on the lid of the basement after you place your fiber glass insulation use TVM Ultra Poly Barrier rFoil
This is a not to expensive for what it offers. Bubble foil poly product sold in 48" x 125' sheets, Installs fast and presents a clean white surface for light reflection. Loose fiber glass in a basement lid is bad, fibers will be everywhere, there is some debate as to respiratory consequence. I am surprised these type of products are not code in basement application, even with out fiberglass they are better than nothing. You may have special issues attaching to he pan If there is not a Joist system.
I would suggest getting away from the open loop aspect of your design if possible, Pump heat exchanger pump, or keep the water heater for domestic h20 and get a boiler, locally with technician to assist.
Dan |
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| Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 25 Jan 2009 03:55 PM |
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The reason for the promotion of 3/4" non-barrier PEX on 18" centers with "open" systems is a simple one. It is cheap and easy for the layman to understand (or be mislead by). Cheap is not a proper consideration when evaluating large investments. Value is the thinking man's benchmark for wise choices.
I am glad to see an online company like Blueridge recognizing this serious problem in the industry.
I would buy from a guy like Dan.
Well done. |
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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Blueridgecompany.com
Advanced Member
Posts:656
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| 26 Jan 2009 11:40 AM |
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Badger I appreciate the positive support, We try to make the best recommendations we can. I enjoy the observations you , Rob and Dana make on this site. I still want to do some side by side testing on the heat transfer plates, I am not convinced yet there is a %40 difference as upono reports,
Have a good day,
Dan |
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| Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 26 Jan 2009 11:58 AM |
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Hey Dan,
Not to highjack the thread, I hope, but I will attest to a very large number of lightweight plate systems out there vs the last 5 or so with heavy plates that the temperature drop is real, and roughly as predicted by Uponor.
Further, Uponor's engineering is, while not 100% perfect, about as close to an "industry standard" as we've ever had.
I don't know what a "40%" difference is, I guess that depends on what you are measuring specifically, but the fact is light plates are simply outclassed in joist bays. I'd be careful with the testing as well. I could test both and report figures that sound great for either plate with no difficulty at all without lying or fudging any data, just choosing what to report and how to word it. At the end of the day though, the test should answer what water temperature you need to push 10, 20, or 30 BTUs/sq ft through a subfloor and tile, wood, or carpet floor. "Percent" improvements are meaningless. That's the realm of the radiant barrier guys (NOW, REFLECTS 95% OF RADIANT ENERGY WOW!!!!).... lots of facts, no information. We already have piles of studies like that out there.
to return to the last discussion, I noted the wide centers used by some are, in some cases, a requirement of the huge thin wall pipe they use, to avoid large numbers of kinks. Odd that they continued using it for so long, but one of the companies now apparently recommends 5/8" at double runs per joist bay. Marginally less nightmarish to install, and more even surface temps, way to go! Soon they will realize 1/2" and even 3/8" are excellent choices in a joist bay... only 30 years later than everyone else. "Cutting Edge" design at its finest... |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 26 Jan 2009 12:45 PM |
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That's good stuff Rob, hehehe |
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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Blueridgecompany.com
Advanced Member
Posts:656
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| 26 Jan 2009 12:51 PM |
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Hey Rob,
Yes it is hard to understand the 3/4 pipe or 5/8 pipe in anything other than a commercial project, 3/4 staple up...nuts, 500 1/2 runs a total push, we see it all the time, usually in a not enough heat what can I do situation, I suspect that is the design flaw of this polaris system.
That said I want to look harder at plate thickness, where is the diminishing return, How thick can my factory (US made) go on thickness,
I know the extrusions do produce a better transfer, just where is the value VS price point.
Back to work,
Dan |
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| Dan <br>BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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pepperworks
New Member
Posts:19
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| 26 Jan 2009 01:35 PM |
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here is a link to a couple of pic's of our heating system. On the main floor the tubes are on the metal decking covered with about 3 1/2 inch of concrete with travertine tile over it.
http://cid-17036ed64fc3da59.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Radiant%20Floor%20Heat%20with%20Polaris |
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