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Blueridge company
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| 05/18/2009 4:00 PM |
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You are creating a whole system, amusing your joist is sized properly cracks are minimized with deflection. Further the cracks are going to appear right away as material cures(first month), not so much as building settles, we assume the building to be on solid earth with new construction /foundation requirements. The times I have poured over a slip ( one job 6,000 square feet for an engineer he wanted bubble foil bubble under the surface ( same as a slip joint but minimal insulation value added and no I am not recommending this). The result was concert curl, with out attachment the cement was able to lift as it cured in certain areas, looked like crap, after some time with the grinder the cracks were brought down to flush.
Now you certainly have your own opinion and free will rules all choices.
Mine is the old way I learned it 20+ years back form the professionals I worked with, Good o'l boy science. I would not do it any other way. That said it is only my choice.
Try that de coupler way.
Dan
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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jmagill
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| 05/18/2009 4:00 PM |
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These articles say otherwise.
http://www.radiantpanelassociation.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=99
"Tubing or electric heating elements are attached to the wood subfloor with fastners to hold them in place until a concrete, lightweight concrete, dry pack or gypsum underlayment is installed as the final subfloor. Gypsum products bond to the subfloor and are generally thinner and lighter than concrete products. Concrete must be separated from the subfloor with a slip sheet to prevent bonding. The subfloor structure be built to minimize flexing to avoid cracking the slab."
http://www.oikos.com/esb/45/radiant.html
"You'll also need to put some type of bond-breaker over the plywood deck and wherever the edges of the slab meet a wall or other fixed object. You can use a 6-mil polyethylene slip sheet or a form-release agent for this. If you choose the slip sheet, it must be installed before the tubing. If you prefer the form-release agent, make sure it's chemically compatible with the tubing material."
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jmagill
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| 05/18/2009 4:03 PM |
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| I live in a home with a radiant slab over aslip sheet over a plywood deck. Almost 10 years now.
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Blueridge company
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| 05/18/2009 4:47 PM |
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So,
Good reads, good opinions, The Oikos starts by qualifying the structure of the joist, next new construction VS remo, read deflection, undersized joist ,initial design intent.
The church organizations have similar issues, lots of opinions, many ways to god.
So again I have literally poured 150 / 2,500 sq ft average homes, mostly new construction over the years as described. rough math = 375,000 sq ft. more or less
Slabs and platforms alike. My cement guy must be hitting the multiple millions in square feet poured by now, He probably would agree with me....maybe..
No problems on this end.
The world is full of choices.
I like my way.
Dan
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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jonr
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| 05/18/2009 5:19 PM |
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Could one eliminate the curling by also putting plastic (or ditra) over the concrete while it cures?
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BadgerBoilerMN
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| 05/18/2009 5:20 PM |
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| google crack barriers |
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
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| 05/18/2009 5:23 PM |
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Perhaps we should start over with a definition of "light weight concrete". I think it is fair to say it is not simply a thin overlay.
http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/pumicecrete.htm#LWC |
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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jmagill
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| 05/18/2009 5:24 PM |
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| This article is worth reading.
http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/296a9ac235fc7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____ |
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Blueridge company
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| 05/18/2009 5:39 PM |
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Morgan,
Is the first house in this article your summer diggs?
And I thought you were just another heating contractor, very cool,
Dan |
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
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| 05/18/2009 5:49 PM |
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hehehee,
No but i used to live in NM and CO where such homes are not uncommon.
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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Brawler
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| 05/18/2009 8:14 PM |
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| Morgan i googled crack barrier and other combos with concrete and didnt find anything. Can you recomend a way to prevent the cracks, that i know will form, from translating through the travertine. I am not using light weight concrete, Just normal concrete with fiber and some other "improvements" my concrete guy recomended. Its a tiny pour, but i know as thin as it is its gonna crack. How can it keep the tile from cracking. Dan, This is my second crete placement, The slab was my first. Not questioning your expertise, just everything Ive seen so far sugests poly between crete and damn near everything else. I want to minimis cracks knowing full well i cannot prevent them. You opinion on the double sill plate vs regular with a 2x2 or 2x4 inside of it would be appreciaed. thanks michael |
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Blueridge company
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| 05/18/2009 8:59 PM |
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(DUROCK™ tile membrane is an easy-to-install, thin, waterproof, and vapor-permeable underlayment and tile backer for use in residential and light-commercial floor and wall applications. Available in roll form, its superior tile bond (a result of its patented cementitious surface) provides lightweight, panel-like performance).
Have a look at this stuff, never used it, don't sell it but it is what you are after,
Morgan ,
I still think one of those new mex pads might be yours, I like that free form stuff, bends the rules for sure,
Dan
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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jonr
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| 05/19/2009 6:49 AM |
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Let it crack, don't let it curl. Then use a membrane like ditra or the above DUROCK.
What is the best way to do insulation (to keep from creating a radiant ceiling on the room below)?
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BadgerBoilerMN
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| 05/19/2009 9:04 AM |
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There are many factors that contribute to concrete cracking (flexing of the support structure, improper curing, bad mix) but crack barriers make sense if the finished floor is to stay crack-free.
http://www.noblecompany.com/Products/SheetMembranes/tabid/58/Default.aspx#products
It is not a guarantee, but safety belts, do save lives.
Bending the rules is my MO. I am thinking of building one for my retirement home. I might have to grow a ponytail to get certified for my earth/space module, but I am adaptable. |
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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Brawler
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| 05/19/2009 11:18 AM |
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Thanks, The Noble Co has some cool products. Note, That dude on the trusses has his hair in a bun, not a pony tail. |
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chicou
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| 06/14/2009 10:00 AM |
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Hi,
i'm new here and I found this good thread. I will start a new project with hydronic floor. For newcomer, it's not easy to find good information. I will do most of my next house. So All DIY information is welcome.
I will have neer 4000 ft2 of floor. 2 plywwod floor + 1 concrete floor (in basement) and 1 concrete slab for the garage. I like the idea of lw concrete over gypconcrete.
I'll will keep me inform by continue reading this topic
Thanx for all your valuable information !
Chicou
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baron
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| 06/20/2009 9:57 PM |
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Has anyone ever used dry clean sand instead of gypcrete? I was going to lay sleepers between the stapled down pex radiant tubing and fill with sand. Then place my "floating snap together" cork floor over the whole thing. Any thoughts? I know it may be a bit messy until the cork goes down but I could add the sand and screed as I go.
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Blueridge company
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| 06/20/2009 10:57 PM |
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The sand idea, I have done that in an 500 sq ft addition of my home 15 years back, bad idea. The sand works like an insulator, I thought it would work just fine, but I actually have to run that zone at a higher temp. The room still heat up and all but the best solution is to mix you sand with Portland cement (like mortar) or some other binder, then it will work fine at a lower temp H2O. Your floating floor can still bear on the sleepers and the mass will hold and emit the heat much more effectively. You might consider the RHT floor panel system, same 3/4 thickness but all wood and heat transfer plates. Installed cost is about 2.50 pipe, plates, manifold, turns and local purchased 3/4 ply.
Good Luck,
Dan
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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baron
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| 06/20/2009 11:19 PM |
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| Thanks for that. Are you saying to mix DRY concrete? I am wondering how that changes the heat transfer? I am not familiar with the RHT floor panel system. I guess I may have to go the qypcrete route. I am really looking for an inexpensive "mother earth news" alternative for laying the radiant floor over my existing doug fir floor in this old building. |
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baron
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| 06/20/2009 11:22 PM |
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| Thanks for that. Are you saying to mix DRY concrete? I am wondering how that changes the heat transfer? I am not familiar with the RHT floor panel system. I guess I may have to go the qypcrete route. I am really looking for an inexpensive "mother earth news" alternative for laying the radiant floor over my existing doug fir floor in this old building. |
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