Hello Everyone,

I am new to the forum but have been reading a lot of stuff here.  Been a great resource for me!  Thanks guys!

I am making a new thread because I needed some help, and I wasn't able to find it through the "Search" function... I either get zero result (too specific), or is presented with hundreds of different posts.  Maybe I am just a lousy searcher.

Anyway, what I am trying to find out is:  Has anyone here installed (or at lest gotten a quote on) a WaterFurnace Synergy 3D before, and what was the cost??  If possible, could you also break down the cost by "Hardware" cost, unit installation cost, ground loop installation cost, and if applicable radiant-heat installation/material cost?

Basically, we are building a ~3,000 SF home in Central Ohio and I am at a stage that we need to decide whether to go for in-floor radiant heat.  However, for the love of god I COULD NOT squeeze a ball-park figure out of any of my local HVAC contractors...  I have sent the construction drawing to 3 seperate contractors already, called them, e-mailed them, and 4 weeks later still no quote.  One contractor came back and gave me a quote to install a Carrier (Carrier!!  I ask for WaterFurnace!!) GSHP for 16k, and that system isn't even compatible with radiant heat!!  So, the bottom line is, I still have absolutely no idea if we can afford the Synergy 3D with radiant heat.

So, if any of you can kindly share your prior experience, that would be greatly appreciated!  I just need a very, very, very ball-park number at this point so that we can prepare for the construction loan.  For example, if someone says "Yeah we had one put in, cost us $25k total and here is the break down" we will likely say "Ok that doesn't sounds so bad."  But if the general consences is that "Haaahahaaa you are going to need 18k to buy the Synergy 3D alone, 12k to drill holes, 20k for PEX tubing material and installation, plys maybe another 5-10k"contingency" I would be like "Ok, we can scratch that off the list!!"

So... any information would be appreciated!!  Even just the "list price" of a uninstalled Synergy 3D would be helpful!

Oh and if this has been discussed before, please kindly point me to the right thread!  Any suggestions/pointers/experience with competing air/water combo GSHP system will be great too, since the Synergy 3D is the only one I have found that gives me all 3 (A/C, force-air heat, and radiant heat) in a single unit.

Thanks in advance!  And please do not hesitate to ask if you have any questions!!




Wallace

well, I think You would have to make the decision on cost verses return as it will take longer , but I am planning on doing a heat only unit for the radiant floors in my house...... I have mini splits that do my AC and heat in the spring and fall..

When you say retrofit an existing loop are you referring to a loop field for GEO or the hydronic loop ??
Most hydronic systems are not going to be compatible with GEO. They are designed for 180 degree water , GEO unit will run around temps of 120. You need emitters with low design temps.......
And not all radiant floors are designed for low temps....

If you got a unit with are reversing valve in it you could add AC later .Units with a reversing valve are not a lot more money and later you could install a air handle with a chiller coil and use the GEO for AC...

Look on Waterfurnace web site, they make a unit that is hydronic and air , the Synergy 3D....

Good Luck....

First of all thanks for the reply... I think you nailed it when you said "the decision on cost verses return"... my problem is that I have no idea what the cost is, so I can't compare to the return!!

In Ontario - same climate.

3 ton Waterfurnace synergy 3D, radiant floor for 2237 sqaure feet.  All ducting and Vanee Gold air exchanger.  Two zones - three wells - vertical. Start to finish $50k canadian funds.  All in, ready to heat and cool........Price as of yesterday.............

 

 

 

Thanks for the numbers!! That's very helpful. How did they quote the tubing installation? Is it "staple up" under the sub-floor, or will they install pre-routed panels on top of sub-floor?

I finally gotten ONE quote last week and it was US$75k. I had an initial sticker shock but they loaded it up with everything they have... Synergy 3D, warmboard, and it also will heat the garage and driveway. So after some "deduction" we are at about $55k, more realistic but still a lot higher then your number. So I am thinking maybe it has to do with square footage.

Now, on a slightly different note, do you mind giving me a little more info on your house? Ours come to about 2800 sq.ft above-grade and another 900 sq.ft in the basement... and they want to put in a 6-ton system. I have a feeling they grossly oversized our unit. Plus a 6 ton needed 5-6 wells... So I am trying to do a more apple-to-apple comparasion. Is your 2237 sq.ft. includes basement?

Thanks in advance!



Wallace

Hey Wallace,

I've had similar frustrations getting "ball park" estimates for planning purposes.  Here's my current situation:  I'm near Ottawa, Ontario, which is probably similar to your climate.  We are getting a Synergy 3D geothermal system installed this spring for our 3000sf SIP home.  It already has an electric forced air system, so I don't need to add or change any ductwork.

I think they are putting in a two ton unit.  The Synergy 3D furnace is $17500 (all CANadian funds) installed

I think there is another   $2200 for a hot water buffer tank.  $175 for the touch screen thermostat/control panel.  All installed.

For the 500' closed loop vertical well, it was $21 per foot drilling cost = $110000

Also needed is steel casing inserted down into the well from the surface down to the bedrock.  Cost was $17 per foot of steel casing.  The driller's estimate was that we would probably hit bedrock, at most 80 feet down (be careful, this could vary a lot by your location), which would be about $1360. 

If my math is correct, this is a total of about $33035 plus about 14% fed and provincial sales tax.  

After an informative energy audit with a blower test for $200 which I've had done, I am also eligible for $7500 in fed and provincial rebates.

It is estimated that I will save in the order of 50-60% per annum on my hydro bill (I was heating with electric).   Payback at current costs is around 10-12 years.

In my case, I'm also getting a small area of radiant heating in a new 400sf concrete slab.  The concrete pour with simple finishing is quoted at about $3000.  The geothermal company will lay down the radiant piping (I'll lay the vapor barrier on grade, rigid foam and rebar mesh) and hook up to the Synergy 3D system for about $1000 .

I hope this helps!

M

Also in the same boat. Any thoughts on our house plan of 3000 sq ft main floor with 1500 ft walk out basement in Atlantic Canada. We were looking at geothermal forced air vs radiant heat in the floor. Problem is pouring concrete on main level increases cost , and eliminates the option of the cooling in the summer months. Now after some research have found the synergy 3d system which claims can do both. Anyone out there with this system up and running and is it capable of heating 4500 sq ft. We would love to have radiant in the basement and garage, and air in main living area up stairs. One contractor wants to run standard geo thermal with forced air and run another electric boiler for the garage and basement. To me this just seems silly , the whole reason to go geothermal in my mind was to reduce costs and be more environmentally friendly with one source not multiple. Would love to have some input as the whole geothermal idea is new to me and my wife, but want to do the best we can and not have regrets down the road. Would greatly appreciate any input any one out there may have to help us make the best decision as to how to procede.
Thanks
k

Hi Maceo - thanks for the numbers! At first I thought your number looked really attractive until I realized its for a 2-ton system. The SIP must be really good!

Anyway I now have the detailed break-down of the $75k "quote" I received... here is the detail:

6-ton WF Synergy 3D, installed: $19,462
Field-loop, 6 verticle loop 40ft deep each: $9,647
Air delivery system (ducts): $7,278

Total cost for the base system: $36,387

Now comes the radiant heat portion:
Basement floor, tubing in concrete: $8,975
Garage, tubing in concrete: $4,430
Snow-ment, tubing in asphat: $4,000
1st and 2nd floor (warmboard): $21,814

Total add-on cost for radiant heat: $39,219

Total project cost: $75,606 (ouch)


Obviously, one of the thing I don't get is why they specified a 6-ton system on a 3,000 SF home; especially when the house is south-facing and is fairly well insulated (granted not going to be as good as SIP). Most other HVAC vendor quoted us 4 or 5-ton. Secondly, with the radiant heat costing so much, I don't think we can afford it... the Geothermal system (using air delivery) will pay for itself rather quick, since it should be much more efficient compare to natural gas. But radiant heat (vs force-air, assuming both using geothermal as source) doesn't save that much energy to justify a $40k premium.

That being said, the closest thing we can go for is to do what Kees is thinking - force-air for the upper floors (forget WarmBoard), and only use radiant heat on any concrete surfaces. Plus if I lay my own mash and tubing, I can also save a lot of labor - possibly looking at only $5,000 in materials to get a partial radiant heat setup. In that case our total HVAC cost is about $41k - far better then the $75k figure.



Wallace

Oh another note - I got a quote from our original HVAC vendor, who was going to install a Carrier Geothermal unit for only $17k out-the-door (HVAC, duct work, field-loop - all done). He said for another ~$4,000 we can tie a Carrier GSW hydronic unit into the geothermal system, will will in effect give us both force-air and radiant heat. I am not really sure how it works, I am going to meet this contractor but I do have some reservation. For example, if we needed 5 ton to cool the house, the main HVAC unit will need to be 5 ton. However, in winter time half of the home will be heated by the hydronic unit... meaning we will only use about half of the force-air system's heat capacity. Wouldn't that setup cause it to short-cycle all the time? Or did I missed something?



W.

Some of your numbers seem pretty high... others seem low, like the snowmelt. That should be the first thing to go, and it has to cost more than $4k... it probably needs its own heat source, unless it's a pretty small area? Pretty hard to think you're going to do much snowmelt from a geothermal system as well. Is that a separate, electric system?

at any rate, geothermal systems use large buffer tanks. usually 80 gallons, or so.. to prevent short cycling.

Yes the snow-melt is cheap because its tied into the Geothermal system, not using a seperate boiler. The vendor said he can basically program the injector to keep the water tempreture in that circuit relatively low, to not waste capacity on the system. Also, in Ohio we don't get a whole lot of snow, so its not like the snow-melt circuit will be running for 20 days each month... (More like 3-4 days a month.) Perhaps we could get an even larger buffer tank so that if we turn on the snow-melt circuit, the house isn't going to get cold all of a sudden? Maybe 100+ gallons?

But that's still up in the air... with the price as-quoted, I doubt we'd venture into hydronic at all.

Cheers,



Wallace

The snow melt would have to be tiny for geothermal to do anything with it.

100 to 150 BTUs/sq ft are required to really melt snow. It's unlikely your unit has anywhere near enough "excess" capacity to really touch that.

Ohhhh really? Hum... Our driveway is ~30ft wide by ~45ft long, so we are looking at about 1350 sq.ft give-or-take. 150BTU/SF means we will need in excess of 200,000 BTU to snow melt? If I am reading the specification correctly, the biggest Synergy 3D only puts out 50,000 BTU/Hr (Page 10 on their specification), meaning we'd need 4 of them just to melt snow? Or did I missed something...

Maybe we need to look for another HVAC contractor!!

well, I guess if you don't care how long it takes to melt, and were willing to wait a couple of days, it might melt with one unit ;)

but yeah, that won't do much.

Hello Rob,

Ha haaa haa... a couple of days the sun would've melted it!! I guess we should scrap it if its not going to be effective. Thanks for the tip though!

By the way, we started looking into DIY and I got another quote from a different contractor who will install a 5-ton Carrier GT-G for ~$17,000 "turn-key" (ground loop, equipment, duct work). He will also install a GSW hydronic unit in tandum (I assume it will use the same ground loop) for an additional $4,000 ish. But he admits he knows nothing about radiant heat, cannot care less about it, and would rather me not go that route. Anyway, he said as long as we install all the tubing ourselves he can install the GSW to supply us with hot water. But I have some concerns...

1. If we do DIY, we'd only lay pipe in the basement and garage first, and tie those into the GSW. The rest of the house (1st and 2nd floor) will still be heated by force-air, using the GT-G. The plan is "later on" (when money is available) maybe we can retrofit the rest of the house and do staple-up to convert the rest to radiant heat. However, before we can do that, I am worried that we will short-cycle BOTH the GT-G and the GSW in the heating season... what is your thought?

2. This contractor will not tie-in the tubing to the GSW. He basically wants nothing to do with the hydronic part - he just drop in the GSW and leave. Does that mean I need to find a licensed plumber to connect it to the GSW? That might be a show-stopper...

3. The fact that he talks down on radiant heat had got me worried. I think he is getting his behind covered... say, down the road if anything goes wrong (even with the force-air side) he could use the get-out-of-jail card named "I told you so"...



Wallace

radiant and geo get tied together all the time, but it does require some knowledge to make it work well. it's pretty common for a geo guy to plumb up to a buffer tank, and then a heating guy to pick it up from there.

usually a buffer tank is used that prevents short cycling, even if the load attached is small to begin with.

I have more simple solution; find a new heat pump man.

Isn't geothermal the "new heat pump"?? lol

Also... back to short cycle... How about the force-air system?  If its a 5-ton system designed to work alone in cooling season, and during the winter I took half of its load off (and use the hydronic unit to supplement), would the force-air unit short-cycle?

I find cost of having these units installed by someone else is over priced. I want to do the right thing and install this green alternative to heating however I don't see the savings anytime in my lifetime. A reg gas furnace for my place with air conditioning is around 12k and a geothermal is 40k+. The 28k extra cost goes a LONG way to curb heating bills specially if you invest in a ING high interest paying savings account. The interest over the first 10 years would be $18,164.20 for a total of $38,164.20 in 20 years it would be $48,111.89 for a total of $76,111.89.
Now they claim you can save $1,200.00 in heating cost compared to gas vs the interest earned is $1,400.00 a year.
So seams to me you're better off doing what the guy with the accent says... Save your money.
If you do you will have $4,000.00 in your savings account plus the interest earned on the money unused by heating bill over 20 years.
Now if you think that having it installed and you borrow the money in the form of a mortgage you will be in the hole several thousands of dollars by the time you pay for the thing, and any savings they promise you? will be gone before you pay your first hydro bill.

I rather spend the extra $ in tripple pane glass which can give you a boost in R rating of 4.2 to 6.2 over dual pane.
That's R2.8 for dual pane Low E and R8.33 Low E to R10 with Krypton gas for Tripple Pane glass.

The Canadian Goverment gives incentives to people who CONVERT from gas/propane/electric up to $7,500.00 but pays NOTHING to people who start off with Geothermal furnaces. THAT is UNFAIR, but even if they did, your money STILL would be better off put into a savings account untill the day comes when ALL Furnaces are Geothermal and the price comes down to earth where the installation takes place...

BBB

Untill then I suggest you invest in extra insulation, tripple pane windows and keeping indoor tempeture reasonable.

You gotta love a guy who can do the math!

Kudos