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Wallace
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Posts:12
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| 04/12/2009 3:10 PM |
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Hello BadBamBam,
First of all thanks for the reply! That's some very good points. However, if we are looking at pure geothermal vs. gas (remember I started this thread mainly in regards to radiant heat, so this post is assuming I forgo radiant heat), it actually pays for itself on a new-build since day one (in the U.S. at least). Remember I said there is another HVAC contractor who can install a turn-key force-air geo system for $17k? The same guy quoted me a gas furnace for $9k. So I am looking at $8k difference (probably for drilling the ground-loop). Now, in the U.S., since we get 30% tax credit from Uncle Sam for the ENTIRE geo HVAC system (including the duct works), my net expense is only $11,900 to have a Geo installed... vs. $9k on a gas unit. I think the $2,900 price difference will pay for itself rather quickly, not to mention the savings in electrical bills will offset the mortgage payment immediately.
I am sorry that we have a better tax incentive in the U.S., so for us it seems we are better off paying for the geo system than upgrading to triple-plane glass. Without the 30% tax credit I would be in your boat... |
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Wallace
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Posts:12
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| 04/12/2009 3:58 PM |
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Ok while I am here I have another update. The "cheap" contractor (the one who quoted me a Carrier Geo system) gave me an updated quote will the bells and whistles: basically I upgraded the Carrier GT-G to the GT-GX (top-of-the-line) and also add “comfort zone” (multi-zone control) to the system. The upgrade is $3,600, and comfort zone $4,200. So I am looking at ~$25,000 for an “apple to green-apple” comparison. Remember the “base” system for the Synergy 3D comes in at about $36k, so for $25k I am getting almost everything except: a) one ton less (5-ton instead of 6-ton system), and b) the ability to hook up a hydronic system.
Now obviously the two contractors may be using different ducting systems or different drilling subs, but from a consumer’s stand point, I am paying $11k extra just to have the ability to use radiant heat.
Next, another blow in the plan… Warmboard’s rep said normally a contractor charges ~$2 a sq.ft to lay your sub-floor, and if we are willing to install the warmboard ourselves, the “net cost” of the warm board could be only about $3-$4 per sq.ft. On top of it, because the board qualifies for the 30% tax credit, we are looking at less really about $2 per sq.ft increase on “net cost after tax”. That’s very feasible, since my labor is free… so I went and talked to the builder. Guess what, he said to do the subfloor ourselves would actually cost me MORE money. The reason being the current framing sub is one of those “get-in, get-out” budget contractor that will not accept jobs that deviates from their normal routine. If we say “I want to do my subfloor myself” they will probably not take the job. (Apparently their price is good enough that they have more job then they can schedule.) Anyway, he said in order to do the subfloor ourselves he will need to switch to a true “custom” framing company that is willing to work with us, and their cost will be higher. So there you have it… “production” framing guy that M.I. Home uses, “semi-custom” framing guy that he currently plan to use, and “true-custom” framing guy that builds million dollar homes and will do whatever we tell them. And if we want to do Warmboard we will have to go from #2 to #3. Now of course he might be full of crap, but from my experience working with him (and double-checked several of his contractor’s prices – we put a lot of the items out for bid ourselves) I don’t think he is pulling my leg.
The more I look into it, the more I think we are just in the wrong income bracket to want radiant heat… I never thought it was one of those things that “if you have to ask how much, you can’t afford it”.
Sigh. |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:715
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| 04/12/2009 8:32 PM |
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While warmboard is a great product, and excellent for geo, it's not the only method, and your framing constraints could be worked around.
Regardless, it pays to be careful: it's unlikely that $11k in your base quote represents only the difference that "allows the use of radiant heat". It's not like the synergy is $11k more than a force air only unit. it's not even $11k, total, last I knew? So obviously a big issue here is what is the difference between the quotes/methods, not whether one can do radiant heat or not. Hydronic units aren't that much more, quite simply.
the hydronic SYSTEM, might be, I don't know how FHA is pricing out these days. but certainly not the heat plant itself.
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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Richard Melius
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:4
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| 04/12/2009 9:43 PM |
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Wallace and all other readers,
I have researched geo and radiant for a long time and have found the following web sites to have lots of info:
1. igshpa.okstate.edu
2. radiantdesigninstitute.com exceptional amount of excellent info!
3. geoexchange.org
4. advgeo.com I know a contractor from Connecticut who has installed hundreds of these. It uses freon and copper tubing for the ground source wells instead of water/antifreeze; a MUCH better/efficient system!
5. radiantdirect.com Some of their ideas/use of products are questionable to me, ie; type of PEX tubing, aluminum staple up tubing holders, warmboard. Please see the web site info at #2. above.
6. radiantheatdisaster.com He wants to sell you a book, however a lot of his comments hit home!
I am a proponent of SIPS; the first home I designed and built for a customer was a SIP home in upstate NY in 1977-78. It still performs like it did when it was new. Had electric back up electric resistance heat strip in the air handler which never came on!......when it was 0 degrees!
I also believe that we should be designing and engineering houses and all other structures to use as little energy as possible for HVAC FIRST and then utilize the additional systems available: geo, solar, wind.
Respectfully,
Rich M. |
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Richard Melius
Registered Users
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Posts:4
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| 04/12/2009 9:50 PM |
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Wallace,
How about contacting Water Furnace direct? Just go on their web site, their factory is in Florida and they can give you lots of info and the names of dealers/contractors in your area. Their requirements to be a dealer are very strict! All the people I have talked to in NC (where I am) who are dealers and the factory regional manager seem to be extremely knowledgeable and professional.
Rich M. |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:715
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| 04/13/2009 8:51 AM |
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| Be careful with radiant design institute: there is some good info there. and some pretty questionable stuff too, and some really out of date stuff. their POV on aluminum, for example, is just plain wrong, and doesn't take into account any actual heavy gauge aluminum products (or his "testing" would have been very different). |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:311
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| 04/13/2009 10:22 AM |
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| igshpa.okstate.edu is a good one at least and Richard is right about Water Furnace. I wish I'd of thought of that! |
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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StlGoddard
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:1
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| 04/13/2009 10:59 PM |
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| If I may suggest, from a guy who installed his own Radiant Floor system five years ago, and am looking at puting in a Geothermal to complement it... I would suggest looking at hydronicpros. Have them design the whole thing to your specs. Have them help you pick the manufacturer, and give the plans to the HVAC guy. You should know the costs for everything except his instalation... |
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maceo
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:2
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| 04/15/2009 8:11 PM |
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Hey party people,
My cost breakdown (from earlier in the thread) for my WaterFurnace Synergy 3D system is actually for a 4 ton system, not a 2 ton system, if that helps anyone with comparison shopping.
M
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kjseuferer
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:16
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| 06/19/2009 9:32 AM |
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| Wallace,
We are in central Iowa. Just had a Synergy 3D installed. Our house is 2200 square feet with radiant floors and our attached shop has 2400 square feet of radiant floor. Only the house had ducting installed for A/C.
Around here, it is about $1000 a ton to have the horizontal ground loop installed. I think it is about $1500/ton for vertical. They charge a whopping $3 a square foot to install the radiant floor. I did it myself and my wife and kids tied down the tubing. The concrete finisher said it was the best tubing install they had ever seen. :>)
Our Synergy 3D installed with ducting and 3 zones costs $4000 a ton. I supplied the Marathon water heaters and geo tank so that did not include the tanks. I also installed the radiant floor on the second floor. So, the HVAC guy basically installed the unit and hooked it up and they also ran ductwork.
If you can, you will save a huge pile of money by putting the tubing in the floor yourself. It just takes time and you might want to get the design looked at by the HVAC installer for his approval. |
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new2geo
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:14
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| 10/10/2009 11:11 PM |
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Posted By kjseuferer on 06/19/2009 9:32 AM
Wallace,
We are in central Iowa. Just had a Synergy 3D installed. Our house is 2200 square feet with radiant floors and our attached shop has 2400 square feet of radiant floor. Only the house had ducting installed for A/C.
Around here, it is about $1000 a ton to have the horizontal ground loop installed. I think it is about $1500/ton for vertical. They charge a whopping $3 a square foot to install the radiant floor. I did it myself and my wife and kids tied down the tubing. The concrete finisher said it was the best tubing install they had ever seen. :>)
Our Synergy 3D installed with ducting and 3 zones costs $4000 a ton. I supplied the Marathon water heaters and geo tank so that did not include the tanks. I also installed the radiant floor on the second floor. So, the HVAC guy basically installed the unit and hooked it up and they also ran ductwork.
If you can, you will save a huge pile of money by putting the tubing in the floor yourself. It just takes time and you might want to get the design looked at by the HVAC installer for his approval.
This is an old thread, but if you check in I would appreciate knowing two things. First, what ton Synergy unit did you put in, and second, how does someone figure out a design, much less know how to tie it down? I may go with a synergy, as I don't want a whole house radiant system, just our bathrooms. I have a feeling I could lay down the pex piping, but I'd like to learn how. |
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kjseuferer
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:16
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| 10/12/2009 7:42 AM |
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new2geo,
There are several ways to tie down the floor loops. If you are pouring a floor with concrete or gypcrete, you can tie it to the rebar or staple it to the insulation/subfloor.
If you have a regular wooden subfloor, you can go with the snap-in products or staple it to the bottom of the floor. Don't do it without using a heat transfer plate though. Check the internet for suppliers and you can figure out all the different options.
Why would you not want radiant heat throughout your house? If you only want to heat the bathroom floors, it would probably be a lot cheaper for you to install electric radiant heat and forget the Synergy unit. |
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www.greenss.net
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:1
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| 10/17/2009 7:14 AM |
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| Just want to add a little info on this subject. I just finished a home that had ICF above grade walls. We installed a Synergy 3D system. It is overkill. I have designed a system that works very well with SIP/ICF building envelopes. Due to the expense of Waterfurnce. Incoperate solar thermal into your system instead of Geo. If you do your research on this you will find that it will make sense. Always spend your money to conserve energy first then focus on producing. |
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Brian Shier
Green Structure Supply LLC.
269-929-2875
brian@brianshier.com |
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new2geo
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:14
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| 10/20/2009 2:38 PM |
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Why would you not want radiant heat throughout your house? If you only want to heat the bathroom floors, it would probably be a lot cheaper for you to install electric radiant heat and forget the Synergy unit.
Because I have wood floors in the house and the bathrooms are part of an addition. I am concerned about electromagnetic fields with the electric mats as well as the cost to run them. I have read enough about health problems caused by such fields that I think they shouldn't be ignored. I understand that they are far higher than the ones caused by electric clock radios, which we are not supposed to have by our bedsides anymore.
I wondered if it would be practical to have the bathrooms warmed hydronically by a combination geo system. Or, would it be expensive to install and also be a drag on the efficiency of a geo system. |
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Hult
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:1
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| 10/28/2009 9:32 AM |
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Posted By Wallace on 03/05/2009 5:35 PM
Has anyone here installed (or at lest gotten a quote on) a WaterFurnace Synergy 3D before, and what was the cost?? If possible, could you also break down the cost by "Hardware" cost, unit installation cost, ground loop installation cost, and if applicable radiant-heat installation/material cost. [snip]
Wallace
I too would like to know the hardware-only cost for the Synergy3D especially 3 and 4 ton.
TIA! Marc |
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