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NRT.Rob
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Posts:733
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| 03/10/2009 3:02 PM |
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| what exactly would you lose? Insulate the heat exchanger, and your "loss" is a very small amount of pump energy. It's not like you're firing the water heater more or anything. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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jmagill
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Posts:237
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| 03/10/2009 3:31 PM |
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| Either way, I don't need to spend the money. I am happy with my system. |
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quailrunner
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Posts:22
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| 03/10/2009 9:24 PM |
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Disclaimer: Not a pro
One more issue I've heard mentioned is the change in pressure between the house and a closed or indirect system; a pressure-reducing valve is usually in the design in an indirect system, no? The standing pressure of our (indirect) system is about 18 psi, but the house water side ranges between 30-50 psi. This appears to be a means of protecting the parts of the heating system, which could be incorporated into a closed system, but not an open - true or not?
In any case, my local (NYS) building code does not allow open systems. |
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BadgerBoilerMN
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| 03/11/2009 8:31 AM |
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A pressure reducing valve is sometimes used between the potable water supply and the closed system protected by a back flow preventer. Typical residential boiler systems operate at 12 psi and potable between 45 and 80 psi.
There are no practical savings in open system design. |
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MA
www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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Blueridge company
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| 03/11/2009 9:14 AM |
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Put your seat belt on,
Badgers right!
Open Loop=Bad idea,
Regarding codes, oddly King County in Washington state supports these. Further Seattle Housing authority installed 2,000 plus several years ago, Fan coils with water heaters, loaded with problems from pipe to not enough hot water and on. We since have assisted them in changing design pattern to support a wall mounted boiler and radiators. I have no idea why some company's push open systems, for about hte same cost it can be done right with a boiler, condensing or otherwise. My guess a 2,00 sq ft home is hitting the 200,000.00+ mark on the build out. I recommend spending a small portion more on mechanical infrastructure and do the best first. Budget down on the counter tops or else ware an easy upgrade can occur in the future.
Dan |
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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jmagill
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Posts:237
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| 03/11/2009 12:24 PM |
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Posted By BadgerBoilerMN on 03/11/2009 8:31 AM
A pressure reducing valve is sometimes used between the potable water supply and the closed system protected by a back flow preventer. Typical residential boiler systems operate at 12 psi and potable between 45 and 80 psi.
There are no practical savings in open system design.
I disagree with you on the no practical savings.
In our small home we were able to add radiant heating for only the cost of piping, pumps and mainfolds. Installing it ourselves and we have a great heating system for about what it would have cost us for electric baseboards.
If I was to build another small home or shop I would do the same system again.
When you need to start adding mixing valves, more than two zones, setback thermostats etc. then you should just go with a closed system. |
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BadgerBoilerMN
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Posts:311
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| 03/11/2009 1:06 PM |
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This is an unwise practice, since safe and inexpensive alternatives are available. The Combi 1 costs less than the overpriced Polaris, and is a better - safer value. I hope others will follow established standards (more especially important for the novice).
You take risks professionals will not.
Get back to us in 10 yrs. or so.
I believe in individual freedom and the inevitable responsibility that comes with it. I wish you the best of luck. |
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www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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jmagill
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Posts:237
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| 03/11/2009 1:23 PM |
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I have already lived in this house 8 years. I was used pex for my domestic plumbing and was told by all the plumbers that I was using the wrong product. I used SIPs and was told I was wasting my money. These products and uses are now common place.
My water heater cost me $600.00 what does the combi-1 cost?
I understand that you can not take risks but I can. I have and I have succeded. I don't take wild risks, I do my homework and every small risk I have taken has paid off.
I state the facts, good and bad and let others make their own decsions. |
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NRT.Rob
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Posts:733
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| 03/11/2009 1:39 PM |
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Sure thing. I am sorry you can't differentiate between "old fogeys" and reasonable concerns though. Frankly I'm not sure I would use plastic for drinking water myself these days, but I'm being converted the other way. But more importantly, I know a family near here with an open system, actually designed by the company I used to work for.
their 8 year old son got pneumonia this year. Was it because of their heating system? That would be hard to say. But now, whether it was originally caused by legionella or not, their son is an exposure risk for sure to whatever IS in their system.
You might be strapping and healthy, and your whole family might be when you install the system. Great. But it doesn't always stay that way, and it would be a real shame if this boy now has to look forward to increased susceptibility to pneumonia for the rest of his life because of the heating system in their house.
I doubt you are a biologist who specializes in bacterial amplification, but you can't really say you have "succeeded" in anything. When you move out of the house and don't ever get sick, I guess you could. And you probably will.
But some people may not, and that is why a one shot insurance policy is only prudent. Skipping it is only cheap. That is all. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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jmagill
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Posts:237
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| 03/11/2009 1:51 PM |
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I don't in any way mean to downplay your concerns. They are valid and I think every homeowner needs to seriously consider your information.
I make a point of maintaining my system so that I don't have those concerns.
I flush everything twice a year. I run the hotwater through the whole system at a temp that will kill everything at a regular scheduale.
I am hands on and have weighed my risks.
It really is no different than someone taking the risk to ride a motorcyle with out a helmet( in states that allow it).
The people who frequent this site are better off by hearing the whole story and not just the scary parts.
In fact, I bet my story and knowing the work it takes to ensure the system is safe will have more people than not, putting in the closed system.
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NRT.Rob
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| 03/11/2009 1:56 PM |
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| that's fair, I suppose. I don't think a twice a year flush really does anything to keep you safe, but if you are monitoring your water quality, so be it. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
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Posts:311
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| 03/11/2009 1:58 PM |
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Professionals like Rob and I hope people who frequent this sight will have the good sense to know their limitations and defer to doctors, microbiolgists, engineers, code officials, plumbers etc. and ignore their misguided peers regardless of "cost" savings.
As I have said before; open systems are just plain silly. |
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MA
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jmagill
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Posts:237
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| 03/11/2009 2:08 PM |
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None of those officials have all the answers either.
Codes change all the time. Pex was not code before, it is now. Code on how you can plumb for gas has changed.
Doctors hurt and kill people everyday because someone told them that a drug was okay to give them.
Label me anything you want.
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Blueridge company
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| 03/13/2009 10:38 PM |
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you can lead em to water but cant make em drink. Legionnaire's is air born, you get it by aspirating it....... think shower, though it appears as pneumonia it actually is not and will not respond to the standard pneumonia treatment. Legionnaire's bacteria grows in 110 degree water, stagnant. Mis diagnosed luck and feeling ill for a while will let you survive. Of the 10 or so open loop systems I installed a couple decades back to save money or get the job based on budget I totally regret them. I am certain they run fine, but to save a few bucks, why not just do it right. I know a couple have been replaced with boilers or flat plate heat exchangers.
Combi-core is a great alternative for the hot water heater crowd, to easy to use, cant really goof it up.
H20 heat can be affordable and still done proper.
good luck,
Dan |
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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jmagill
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Posts:237
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| 03/14/2009 9:42 AM |
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Posted By Blueridge company on 03/13/2009 10:38 PM
you can lead em to water but cant make em drink. Legionnaire's is air born, you get it by aspirating it....... think shower, though it appears as pneumonia it actually is not and will not respond to the standard pneumonia treatment. Legionnaire's bacteria grows in 110 degree water, stagnant. Mis diagnosed luck and feeling ill for a while will let you survive. Of the 10 or so open loop systems I installed a couple decades back to save money or get the job based on budget I totally regret them. I am certain they run fine, but to save a few bucks, why not just do it right. I know a couple have been replaced with boilers or flat plate heat exchangers.
Combi-core is a great alternative for the hot water heater crowd, to easy to use, cant really goof it up.
H20 heat can be affordable and still done proper.
good luck,
Dan
How about the rest of the story!
Any domestic hot water system has the potenial to harbor Legionaires's. Any domestic hot water system that keeps the hot water tank at below 140 degrees can support Legionaires.
Many homeowners have turned down their hotwater tanks to the lowest setting to save money. This is usually about 125 degrees. |
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Blueridge company
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| 03/14/2009 3:28 PM |
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We have a society that likes warm water, You are right water heaters can harbor Legionaries (so can your yard compost for that matter, life is a risky deal). The key diffrence is that there is a nesity to have a hot water heater deliver hot water to the sink and other fixtures. In theory in an activly used home water is circulated thru these tapps regularly. No real opportunity for stagnation. Open loop heat may have 3,000+ feet of pipe, rely on pumps and timers that are both subject to fail and or have one or more circuits that are poorly balanced and never do get a full recirculation once a day.
As a class type of systems this is a real problem. A clean out twice yearly is not an answer, If done 'right" you would simply have a timer on the pump for a daily short cycle.
Oddly here in Seattle code permits this system further many plumbing inspectors do not understand what they are looking at regarding the heating side of the systems, they are not looking at the balances of system pipe length, pump timers, and on. As I said earlier, I have done a few larger open loop systems some time back and gone through inspections. They did not want to look hard at the heat side.
This casual approach has led to a large number of water heater based systems with in floor and forced air Turbonic and Myson type air handlers being pumped out by builders trying to save a buck.
Dan
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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jmagill
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Posts:237
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| 03/14/2009 3:41 PM |
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I am in houses daily where branches of the domestic hot water system are used once a year. Legionaires requires stagnation as well as temp to grow.
There are several simple ways to make an open system have far less likelyhood than a regular domestic to get Legionaires.
In fact a steaming hot tub is more likely to be the perfect home for legionaires than domestic water system. |
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NRT.Rob
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Posts:733
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| 03/14/2009 3:45 PM |
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| I know a fellow who, in fact, got legionnaires' from a vacation home domestic system. Legionella is in most plumbing systems. It's not like it's particularly finicky stuff. A little flow rate doesn't kill it or anything, it just dilutes it temporarily unless you remove the biofilm entirely. |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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Blueridge company
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| 03/14/2009 3:58 PM |
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so the reality is that it is there, and a designers options are to avoid problems, my car goes 120mph, do I drive that fast, no. my option. It is a real problem and as Rob pointed out sometimes there is no solution. The prudent simple fix is add a pump and heat exchanger. back away slowly.... minimize the potential problems.
Cheers,
Dan |
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Dan
BlueRidgeCompany.com |
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jmagill
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Posts:237
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| 03/14/2009 4:01 PM |
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You are saying that I should seperate the two even though all that does is seperate the two systems but I could still have legionaires in the domestic.
Huh? |
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