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tuffluckdriller
Registered Users
Posts:406
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| 03/26/2008 9:35 AM |
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| EarthLinked can make radiant hot water, domestic hot water, and forced air heating and cooling all from the same unit. This requires some modules that go with the heat pump unit, and knowledge on the installer's part to put that together. We've done it ourselves, and it works very well. |
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Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal, Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
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bobd
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 03/26/2008 6:22 PM |
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Hi Nick, I'm very interested in your project because I also live in New Hampshire (conway area) and have been investigating the same technology and have the same questions.
I noted that ECR advertises some high flow 2" flexible air ducts as well as air handlers on their site. One of my issues with ECR is that the technology they use doesn't allow for a variable speed compressor. I'm trying to design a solar system that is beefy enough to run the geo system and variable speed allows for a smaller start amp, at least that is my understanding.
Please keep the site posted on who you go with and why as it'd be very helpful to learn from your bidding process. BTW, it is also my understanding that, cost issue aside, there is no problem using the ECR technology for both radiant and forced air systems. |
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Farmboy
Registered Users
Posts:149
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| 03/26/2008 6:37 PM |
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| Not speaking as an HVAC expert, but am learning basics thanks to this forum. Not recommending any of the following, just recounting what I've read. Another combo source is Hydro-Temp which patented a system in 1980 and is located in Arkansas. Richard Rue, who many know does load calculations in TX, recommends them. Econar is located in Minnesota and claims to be a cold climate geothermal heat pump. Might consider since you're in New Hampshire.
I know someone with a ClimateMaster open system who has had to replace a flowmeter due to the mineral content of the well water. Make sure you're well water wouldn't cause mineral buildup problems for you. |
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NickB
Registered Users
Posts:17
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| 03/26/2008 8:44 PM |
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I am leaving for Florida tomorrow morning for 10 days, and I won't have internet. Time to roast the bones. I just don't want anyone to think I checked out. Three designer/installers now have my house plans and know of my radiant/air hybrid goal. Perhaps I will have some good info when I get back. I will certainly spill my guts.
Bob, we have to talk. I think your idea of geo for the heat/cooling source AND solar to run the compressors and pumps is awesome. Talk about being off the grid! Is your house oriented properly to take full advantage? Mine is terrible, being oriented due north for the view. Now you have me thinking.....
I will check in on my return. Take care all.
Nick
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cnygeo
Registered Users
Posts:68
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| 03/26/2008 10:02 PM |
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Just a word of caution on coupling solar and PV (which you're probably already aware of) in terms of energy efficiency it is likely a losing proposition. If the solar cell is only 15% efficient, and you use it to run a heat pump with a COP of 3.5, you're effectively getting a "sun to heat" efficiency of about 50%. You can get close to this with a solar hot water collector for a fraction of the cost.
Of course there are a lot of other financial and engineering issues to consider, so it might make sense for a particular application. |
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bobd
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 03/26/2008 10:12 PM |
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Nick, we'll talk when you get back, have fun.
With regard to the solar issue. I'm planning to use a solar hot water system for part of the year perhaps augmented by either on demand or electric tank for the winter months. I'm using the solar PV to power the house and among other items, the geo-thermal. Of course the system has to be engineered for the loads and yes, voltage drop and start amps are an issue. I may end up having to make concessions here because the PV system could be cost prohibitive, I know it'll be pretty damn spendy as it is. |
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Wetzstein
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 04/08/2008 3:29 PM |
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Hello,
Thanks for this great conversation. We're prepping to build in NW Indiana, in the dunes near Chicago and we've got a bid for a waterfurnace synergy 3 system to supply both radiant heat on three floors and as well as forced air on two. Today a competing company was dissing these combination units claiming that they have proven themselves to be unreliable. From what I've read here the compressors work harder to get the temps needed for radiant heat, but is there anything inherently unreliable about these systems?
Thanks
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NickB
Registered Users
Posts:17
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| 04/09/2008 4:17 PM |
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I have heard the same thing from one of my three potential geo contractors. He has completely dissed combo units. Come to find out, he only uses Climatemaster units and.....surprise surprise.....Climatemaster does not make a combo unit.
Reliability and a proven track record are key for me. I will not venture forth without with something unproven or unreliable. To the point were I will give up on radiant completely if I have to.
Perhaps combo units are just a little too cutting edge? |
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Topgas
Registered Users
Posts:64
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| 04/10/2008 7:20 AM |
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| If you're looking at PV just for the geo then I'd guess that needs around a 4 kw system. A system like this, owner installed, would run at best $20K. Now stick your normal kwh usage and a system like this would double. Remember, these PV systems won't produce what you need during the bad months, Nov.-Feb, therefore they must take excess kwh produced during the summer and apply the credits during the winter months when your geo is cranking. None of this is cheap but for those of us that believe energy could get very expensive and possilby hard to get, it's all there is other than chopping down all the trees and burning them. Solar hot water is very effective for DHW and geo supply. SHW won't do your DHW during the bad months but would really work well with the geo. Nick, where in NH are you from ? I used to live in Exeter. |
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gregj
Registered Users
Posts:161
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| 04/10/2008 10:22 AM |
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| Understand that at some point in the future you won't be able to sell back power to the utility companies at retail rates. When sell back hits a certain point the power companies will not be able to sustain retail purchase of power. So enjoy it while it lasts, and hope that not too many people take advantage of it or the gravy train will crash. When it happens depends on how fast people take advantage of it. |
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Topgas
Registered Users
Posts:64
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| 04/19/2008 7:44 AM |
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| Scary thought but I wouldn't doubt it. We have an energy group that had a Central Maine Power big wig do a presentation about the present and future outlook of electrial energy in the Northeast. This guy (if you can believe him) said that they're going to have real issues with supplying enough energy in the next ten years and that they project brown outs no matter what they do in the next few years to try to stop it. Permitting, capital and lead times were big issues along with growing usage. Time will tell. |
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Eric D
Registered Users
Posts:59
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| 04/19/2008 9:01 AM |
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Northeast includes Michigan. The way I see it with all the business moving out of our state and all the manufacturing plants that keep closing there should be an abundance of of electrical power. In years past my work place would shutdown on high electrical demand days during the summer under a special contract with DTE energy. They shutdown a major automotive plant not to far from us last spring. Since that, even on very hot days they keep us running. I expect with this plant closing that power usage has dropped to the point they no longer need us to cutback.
My question is, where is this added demand going to come from? It would seem to me that some of DTE energy could be routed up to Maine. The rate we are going in this state we woun't be needing it! |
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Eric D
Southern Michigan
From GeoDoctor
www.geodoc.us |
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NickB
Registered Users
Posts:17
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| 04/27/2008 8:17 PM |
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Hello All:
As I wait for my five bids to come in, I realized that I have been talked out of radiant by every single geo contractor I am dealing with. It appears to add significantly to the expense if you add radiant into the mix. Going straight ducts for force hot air/ AC seems to be way more cost effective all the way around.
I really want to try to pull off geothermal, and it appears as though the only way will be with a total air system. So on we go....
I will weigh in with the bids I receive, the comments for and against open loop / closed loop / DX, and all the other fun stuff. Take care, and stay tuned.
Nick |
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