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TechGromit
Registered Users
Posts:225
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| 09/22/2008 6:19 PM |
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The Water Furnace Premier series is a R-22 unit, not a R410A model as I was lead to believe. Its buried way down in the Specifications of the unit before they tell you. If I was aware of this, I most likely would have picked another type of model. The Contractor offered me a choice of paying more for the Envision series to get the R410A or to get a Carrier unit instead. Somehow I feel funny about going Carrier, I'm sure they make fine products, but when they have to buy climate master units that throw there sticker on it, really doesn't reassure me as to there level of expertise with Geothermal systems. Anyway, I just had them install the Premier since it was in the basement already and I specifically took two days off of work to get my system replaced. Looking at the specification when compared to the Envision series, the COP is as good if not better then the upgraded unit, which leads me to believe the R-22 units are more efficient then R410a models, am I making an incorrect assumption here?
When the left for the day, they left all the Installation instructions. I was wondering if I should photocopy everything, do contractors normally allow you to keep all the wiring schematics and installation instructions. There a cute owner’s manual with the unit, but it really doesn't tell me anything useful, such as dip switch settings and wiring schematics.
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geodean
Registered Users
Posts:590
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| 09/22/2008 6:41 PM |
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| The way I see it all of the manuals are yours, you paid for them. |
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Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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TechGromit
Registered Users
Posts:225
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| 09/22/2008 7:16 PM |
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Posted By geodean on 09/22/2008 6:41 PM
The way I see it all of the manuals are yours, you paid for them. You would think so, but then again, when I hired a Photographer to take picktures at my wedding, he didn't give me the negatives, didn't I pay for them too? I decided to go to staples and photocopy the manual anyway, just in case. I will be asking for the manual too, but I'll be covered in case they say no.
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senecarr
Registered Users
Posts:158
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| 09/23/2008 9:34 AM |
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Posted By TechGromit on 09/22/2008 7:16 PM Posted By geodean on 09/22/2008 6:41 PM
The way I see it all of the manuals are yours, you paid for them. You would think so, but then again, when I hired a Photographer to take picktures at my wedding, he didn't give me the negatives, didn't I pay for them too? I decided to go to staples and photocopy the manual anyway, just in case. I will be asking for the manual too, but I'll be covered in case they say no.
That has to do with crazyness from California. The idea the that photographer owns the picture rights comes from the film industry lobbies to make sure copy right law is written in such a way. Couldn't have those uppity actors feel like they own the film instead of the studio, could they? Not that I feel bad for the actors making a million a picture or more. I really don't feel bad for them when they go home to 14000 sq ft estates using a private jet to get there after just promoting a spokes commercial for everyone to do their part for the environment. Meanwhile, who's getting geothermal installed :)?
Anyway, the equivalent to owning the negatives would be you claiming you own the copyright to the manual, which you don't. In fact, I'd say you have more rights to the manual than you do to photocopy it, legally speaking. However, I don't think Waterfurnace goes around worrying about people making bootlegs of their manuals (chinese subtitles on the bottom or not)! Waterfurnace doesn't have the install manual online like Climatemaster? |
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a0128958
Registered Users
Posts:183
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| 09/23/2008 9:37 AM |
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All of the WF manuals are available on-line. The IntelliZone product's manual is too although this one's a little harder to find.
Best regards,
Bill |
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senecarr
Registered Users
Posts:158
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| 09/23/2008 10:03 AM |
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Including the install manual, not just the owner manual?
Either one is a lot better than Earthlink's site for trying to find a manual. I have to agree with Engineer, that's what I want to find when I'm making a 20K+ investment, a picture of kids blowing daisies. Surely that lets me know the CoP and estimate operating costs - it only costs a daisy! |
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a0128958
Registered Users
Posts:183
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| 09/23/2008 10:45 AM |
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Posted By senecarr on 09/23/2008 10:03 AM
Including the install manual, not just the owner manual?
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Yes. Along with the Specification Guide.
Best regards,
Bill |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 09/23/2008 8:20 PM |
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I'm nearly indifferent about refrigents. Not that there aren't consequences, but that's true in either case. I can't be convinced that higher operating pressures (R-410) are not without consequence to the lifespan of compressors. I'm also convinced that one of the main reasons R-410 has achieved it's prominance is because Carrier threw into it early on and they are the biggest AC guy after all.
I'm also not convinced that a reasonable drop in for R-22 is not going to be available (Icor International's NU-22 is already in use in Earthsource products). You should have been made aware of the difference, but I don't think you are going to notice an operational difference and if you saved money, bank it against repair cost after 2020 when R-22 goes out of production.
As always, these are my humble opinions not necessarily fact.
J |
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engineer
Registered Users
Posts:397
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| 09/23/2008 8:49 PM |
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I'm with you. We engineers have, at best, a dry sense of humor, but one of my favorite bits of what passes for humor to engineers concerns the Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics which states: "Things get worse under pressure"
Along with the longevity of compressors I wonder about reversing valve longevity under 410's higher pressures.
I wouldn't bet against a viable R22 drop in, either - way way too much money to be made with it.
FWIW, I had an '89 Ford truck which a Ford dealer converted to 134a for what seemed to me not a lot of money (~$200). Anytime a dealer does anything for $200, it can't have been much. I can't vouch for their procedure, but the AC continued for years to just about spit ice cubes at me just as it had before with R12. Air temp at the vents was low 30s, far lower than with the '99 truck that replaced it. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 09/23/2008 10:18 PM |
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Appreciate the comments, I usually only discuss this with the end consumers so I don't get a ton of feed back on these views.
The conversion kit for auto AC's is now about $39 at auto parts stores and I comment on this to my customers with some frequency.
I also don't want anyone to confuse this with my poo-pooing R410 as it is the current front runner, and also as 2 stage systems are the flag ships of the lines, many brands don't offer R-22 in 2 stage appliances. As 2 stage units are a better fit for many of my high heat, low cooling load jobs, I'm installing about 60% R-410 systems.
So if TG's unit is a good fit refrigerant doesn't matter. Incidentally, regarding your contractor, I recently signed up with a customer on a single stage (R-22) unit who asked in the last few minutes before placing the order if this unit had R-410. I had offered web site referrals, and may or may not have mentioned it in my product descriptions, but if that information was omitted, it was unitentionally hidden in plain sight.
I can tell you that I have yet to sell a single stage R-410 unit. If folks want to spend the extra money, they are awfully close to the 2 stage price at that point.
J
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TechGromit
Registered Users
Posts:225
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| 09/23/2008 10:22 PM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 09/23/2008 9:37 AM
All of the WF manuals are available on-line. The IntelliZone product's manual is too although this one's a little harder to find.
Not that I saw. There appears to be a Install manual for Envision systems, but only system specifications are listed on the Premier, unless the install manual is buried somehwhere else on the website. Also looking at the Envision system manual online, it doesn't appear to have the same level of indepth information the install manual included with my unit has, such are detailed dipswitch settings. So weather the Envision manual online is a watered down version, I can't say. My fears were unfounded, the installer just tossed the manual inside the unit and closed the cover so they will be readily available next time they are needed. I guess I was a little bit concerned when I ask FHP for a manual on my existing system was told nothing exists but a wiring diagram, but you as a lowly peasant homeowner can't see it, that information is for only for HVAC Nobels.
As for R-22 vs R410a, I would have perferred to have a system that I know would be supported 15 years down the road if I needed recharging. For what i read for the Offical EPA website:
January 1, 2020:
Use of existing refrigerant, including refrigerant that has been recovered and recycled, will be allowed beyond 2020 to service existing systems, but chemical manufacturers will no longer be able to produce R-22 to service existing air conditioners and heat pumps.
So basically in 12 years if I need new refigerant, I'm out of luck, but with the number of R-22 system still in service, Im assuming that recycled R-22 will be readily available for another 10 years or more. And as systems are replaced with new R410a, the recycled R-22 will be available for a shrinking number of R-22 based customers. I've become more enviromently concious over the years, I recycle more and more, such as flatting cardbaord boxes that food comes in (ie Cereal boxes), rather then toss them into the trash. If the contractor would have pointed out to me that the Permier model was R-22, I would have most likely taken the Envision model instead, but I guess I can live with what i have. (PS I don't know why this is all blue now, there doesn't appear to be any options to change it to blue. Something left over from the EPA copy and paste?)
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 09/23/2008 10:34 PM |
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We do refer to manuals from time to time so we tend to put them where homeowner's won't file them away.
Not picking on anyone, just a fact that every technician has needed info that's in the book H/O can't find.
Incidentally, I have trouble getting Water Furnace information as well since I'm not a dealer. Guess I'm ignoble.
Code most places requires that all operating manuals be left with the appliance. That's a handy one for new installs when the contractor forgets.
J |
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jimdoc
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 09/28/2008 7:33 PM |
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> ...when I hired a Photographer to take picktures at my wedding, he didn't give me the negatives,
> didn't I pay for them too?
This works 2 different ways.
1. You buy a product of his labor - finished prints.
2. You pay him to do "work for hire" - you pay more, you get prints, negatives (or original RAW digital images), everything.
The photography thing is not really comparable to GSHP. I think is it clear the contractor is doing work for hire, and you should get the product and everything that goes with it.
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 09/30/2008 10:40 AM |
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TG, R-12 went out of procuction in the early 90's and is still available even though it was employed in virtually every auto a/c as well as resi window a/cs and refrigerators and freezers + commercial walk-ins and packaged coolers. The only folks still seeking R-12 that I know about (as there are multiple "drop-in" replacements depending on application) are classic car purists. The bars and cars and grocery stores that have not yet replaced old equipment are using R134 or one of icor internationals products. Drop ins for R-22 are already out there.
Don't panic, you'll be fine. The bigger issue will be the leak, not the refrigerant.
J |
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