senecarr
Registered Users
Posts:158
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| 10/07/2008 1:12 PM |
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| So now my neighbor who has had geothermal installed is raising a stink about my potential installation because of the wetlands both our properties touch.
So now its looking like the Department of Environmental Quality in MI may become involved.
Anyone have experience with the environmental agencies giving trouble about CLOSED loop? |
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geodean
Registered Users
Posts:590
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| 10/07/2008 7:37 PM |
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| We have never any concerns raised about closed loops. We have installed hundreds. What is your neighbors concern? |
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Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 10/08/2008 2:25 AM |
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Neighbor's concern is not about wetlands is about nosing into other peoples affairs (I call him MRS. Kravitz). We have a not especially constitutional policy here in MI of taking the use of one's property away from them by designating "wet-lands". A loose term "wet-lands" is defined among other things as (possibly) any area within 500' of moving water (including county drainage ditches), seldom dry, areas surrounding lakes, ponds, swamps...... (very uncommon situations in the GREAT LAKE STATE!). Perhaps the tree huggers would rather Seneca choked a duck with his propane furnace exhaust.
Enforcement is loose without a specific complaint. Permits are readily granted (for a meager fee of $500), and as long as the work is done correctly (return the soil in the same strata layers in which your 15 ton excavator removed them), there are no problems.
The trouble is a Genie in the bottle situation. To determine that this is indeed wetlands and that you require a permit, there has to be a site visit (only $100 and 2 weeks out) during which a loan individual will instantly decide how much of your property you may occupy- forever! They may require you to remove structures or driveways already in place with no regard to economic consequence to land owner. In other words; not someone you want to invite for tea. They are mostly reasonable people but the stakes are very high.
So; digger policy has been- it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission- a once in a lifetime thousand dollar fine vs everyday $500 fee + risk of homeowner literally being denied use of their property.
Throw in a neighbor that is probably taking pictures and we may not conduct business as usual.
We are looking for other directions to dig on Seneca's property, but only to satisfy the neighbor. The DEQ really doesn't care though they would like our fee.
Joe |
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geodean
Registered Users
Posts:590
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| 10/08/2008 8:27 AM |
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| What a crock of crap !!!!! |
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Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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senecarr
Registered Users
Posts:158
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| 10/08/2008 10:23 AM |
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Yes, the neighbor is terribly concerned about things being done the "right" way.
It goes back to when he bought the house next door ahead of me, he ran into problems with water draining into his new basement. So before I even bought the house he was contacting me about being able to get permission to remove the ridge next to the pond on the property I was buying (look at picture).
So I gave him permission, being neighborly and not wanting him to have issues with a flooding basement. Well he actually wanted me to help pay for the removal, though I told him I didn't have the finances to do such. He went through quite a lengthy process according to him of getting wetlands inspectors and engineers to figure out this plan and guarantee it won't hurt the wetlands.
Flash forward, he's written a complaint to the township about decking wood that the previous owner left between the pond and stream. I got a letter saying 30 days to remove building materials because township laws don't allow outdoor storage.
Then with the ridge not blocking his view, he's proceeded to look over and photograph my yard, and asked in an e-mail if I was also installing a geothermal system. He said it took him 4 months to get his permit for wetlands, and that I should have gotten mine.
Now even the zoning engineer at the township is saying he's never heard of someone having to do a site survey for a single property, just developers doing 50 acre neighborhoods and such.
It's a big mess. |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 10/08/2008 11:09 PM |
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I suggested to Seneca that if we have to have the Department of Environmental Quality inspector out, we'll ask if we can build a berm on the West side of the pond to encourage better water flow into the "wetland".
I also told Seneca that these inspectors are mostly reasonable people who don't tend to enforce rules that they don't believe in but can't give you permission to break them (re our recent friend who's township would not let him use the Artesian well for an open loop geo; wouldn't participate, as an inspector, nor did I criticize the plan).
While I'm not afraid to bring in the DEQ or pay for the $500 permit (I've already indicated to Seneca that the additional permit if required will be on me), it will take longer. That is the only reason we are seeking a different place for the loops.
We also shared a laugh over temporarily running his heat pump as an open loop (and wished we could discharge into the neighbor's basement).
J |
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senecarr
Registered Users
Posts:158
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| 10/09/2008 9:35 AM |
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When I told my wife about Joe's dubbing him Mrs. Kravitz she started laughing and said, "Abner, Abner, look, the neighbors are at it again, they're putting geothermal in their backyard!"
Well, if his flood problems are unrelated to the berm, dumping into the pond may just may accomplish discharge into his basement in the long run. |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 10/11/2008 11:45 PM |
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Anastasia (Seneca's wife), may have figured out the way to cut through red tape. She sent fresh baked goods to the neighbor. So while Seneca and i are puffing out our chests, the fairer sex (no sexism intended) inspired a gushing thankyou e-mail.
She may have solved with a pastry what all the rattling sabres in the world could not accomplish.
Meanwhile in seeking alternate routes, the electric co's miss dig marker provided 5 whole flags and no paint. We got 300 feet from the cable company (who by the way told Seneca it's not available at his house).
Planning a sneak attack as soon as Tuesday (better to ask forgiveness.....). |
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TechGromit
Registered Users
Posts:225
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| 10/12/2008 9:50 PM |
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The guy sounds like a real Dick. Tell you what I would do. I'd get myself an old beat up car, register it, insure it, get it inspected and park it at your property line with his. Hell I'd even let the air out of the tires to make a real eye sore. So long as you keep it street legal, there's not a damn thing he can do about it. Tell him your going to retore it, someday... maybe.
If he's going to complain about every little thing, well at least give him something to complain about.
P.S. That lawn looks awfully dry on that side of the yard, better keep the sprinklers on 24/7.
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senecarr
Registered Users
Posts:158
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| 10/13/2008 9:16 AM |
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Posted By TechGromit on 10/12/2008 9:50 PM
P.S. That lawn looks awfully dry on that side of the yard, better keep the sprinklers on 24/7.
Well that picture certainly isn't recently, and I'm not sure what time of year it was taken. Believe me, that area needs no sprinklers. If I get a brush hog, I'm going to trim it down, although I might get the neighbor complaining about that if I do.
Basically those spots that look dry are actually where the soil is a little different and instead of grass I have more of this tall knee to waist high plant that grows further apart. |
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tuffluckdriller
Registered Users
Posts:411
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| 10/15/2008 5:32 PM |
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TG,
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I LOVE IT!! Great Laugh. Thanks Great idea, too. |
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Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal, Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
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senecarr
Registered Users
Posts:158
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| 10/15/2008 5:40 PM |
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I'll leave that to my father-in-law. My wife really wants him to move in, and if he does, there will probably be a slew of garages and cars being restored in my property. Actually, as agricultural land, there's probably a lot of annoying things I could do - such as plant a lot of trees and cut them down with the most out of tune chainsaw I can find.
I think my mom had the best idea, she proposed I take the horse fence area in the front and convert it to a go-kart rink. Charge the local kids just enough to pay off the karts and the maintenance (which won't be much because an out of tune one makes more noise).
Funny how the stuff that's dubbed "wetlands" actually looks like its the dry areas in the photo. Both my wife and parents are concerned he really doesn't have drainage issues and he just lied to me so he could take down the ridge and pretend he owns a pond. I'm thinking I spring for some trees where the ridge was (hey that's reducing his drainage! if he wants to complain) or a nice fence. Need to research what I can do as far as fence goes wetland and cost wise, but that's a little ways off.
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 10/15/2008 10:23 PM |
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We are digging at Seneca's (a little slowly with todays rain) and no complaints yet.
I spoke with another contractor today who dealt with the DEQ building his house and gave up after nearly a year of trying to do it by their schedule. When they finally showed up months later they fined him $1,000 for not doing it their way.
That is the crux of the problem; $100 for a site survey, $500 for a permit if they deem it wet land ($600 total with lengthy delays) or $1,000 fine if they decide at some point we should have done the first two steps. It's easy to understand why we pick the latter in every case that doesn't involve a neighbor with a camera.
I like the car idea as well and with 3 teenage boys may likely be able to donate a few rotting auto carcasses before long.
The thing that chesses me about this is that Seneca and his wife gave permission to the neighbors to remove a berm that took away their privacy so that the neighbor could snoop. The did it to be good neighbors and are inconvienienced in return.
Noticed the neighbor's geo diggers forgot their silt fences today while they dug within 500' of the water, we should have taken pictures and complained.....
Anyway hope you'll all attend the kick a** illeagel fire works display I'm planning over Seneca's pond next 4th.
J |
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TechGromit
Registered Users
Posts:225
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| 10/15/2008 11:16 PM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 10/15/2008 10:23 PM
I like the car idea as well and with 3 teenage boys may likely be able to donate a few rotting auto carcasses before long.
The thing that chesses me about this is that Seneca and his wife gave permission to the neighbors to remove a berm that took away their privacy so that the neighbor could snoop. The did it to be good neighbors and are inconvienienced in return.
Noticed the neighbor's geo diggers forgot their silt fences today while they dug within 500' of the water, we should have taken pictures and complained.....
Anyway hope you'll all attend the kick a** illeagel fire works display I'm planning over Seneca's pond next 4th.
J
If you planning on opening your own junk yard, I'm sure you will run afoul of local zoning. You can't give him any legal ground to fight back. That's why I specifically stated that to use something street legal. I mentioned the sprinklers because you mentioned that he had problems with water in his basement, why not add to his troubles. Perhaps you could get your driller to drill sideways to within a few feet of his basement wall, insert a pipe and let the fun begin. :) Repeated noise ordinance violations will just get you fined, what you need to do is find things to be annoying, but not give him any legal ground to resolve it.
It's sad to have to resort to these kind of pranks, perhaps the best way to permanently deal with this situation is to create a hill between your properties with a fence on the top of it to keep prying eyes away. Just make sure as your building your hill, it doesn't wonder over the property line. If he asks, tell him the truth, sick of hearing of your bitching and seeing your face. |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 10/15/2008 11:20 PM |
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| Always gotta dose my fun with reality TG. |
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senecarr
Registered Users
Posts:158
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| 10/16/2008 9:16 AM |
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| Unfortunately, with the wetlands, he'd have grounds to make complaint about a hill put up. The berm, whether it affected his drainage or not, was perfectly legal because it was already there. You can't "move to a nuisance" in legal terms. I gave him permission to take down the berm because he told me about going through a couple thousand dollars in consultants about how to do the berm removal and that was the solution to his basement. Now if I make an alteration, I can be creating a nuisance.
We really do want to do a fence eventually, but the wetlands might limit it to us just enclosing only certain areas (probably can't prevent the animals from wandering into and out of the wetlands, but legally you can kill w/ hunting permits them and drag out their carcasses).
Wetlands have a lot of contradictions like that. Apparently forestry and agriculture is allowed at anytime without a permit, but it is illegal to remove or destroy vegetation in a wetland (I'm assuming introduced trees and plants don't count?).
I was tempted to tell Joe to install it and then take up a court case saying they fall under the definition of a power line (they carry heat, a form of power into or out of my house) which are allowed to go into wetlands. Would have been an interesting precendent to set, but I don't think Joe would be interested in being named in it. |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 10/19/2008 1:28 AM |
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Like any war vet, I'm selective about which hills I care to die on. What's more; inviting the "camel's nose under the tent" allows them to decide which part of "your yard" you may use. While 1K (fine) or $600 permit/survey fee, isn't chump change, the larger potential consequence is being required to pull the bridge to the pond, or remove other structures from your property.
Once again, as an inspector, I'm intellectually and morally resposible to do things by the rules. Of course no cop enforces every law and I'm reluctant to cite violations of those things I can't wrap my head around. So if it's $600 to get permission (which is always granted) and hold a job up for months vs a $1,000 fine for not asking........ I ain't gonna ask. I do, however, have to hedge my posisition whenever we have a Mrs. (Mr.) Kravitz involved.
j |
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Alex_in_FL
Registered Users
Posts:21
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| 10/19/2008 2:51 PM |
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Wish I lived there and was familiar with your state rules (I am Registered Environmental Manager). Wetland delineation is convoluted and I have observed experts have serious arguments regarding the classification of an area as a wetland. Too bad you did not know the type neighbor you had - you could have charged him a fee for modifying your property.
Wetland determinations are based upon soil type and flora so it may not be a simple determination. You might consider hiring a biologist from an environmental company in your area and ask them to come give you a quick walk through and their best guess at the wetland boundaries. That might give you insight in to how you wish to move forward. (Note: I can not see how your coil would have any significant impact on the wetland. In addition, the law generally allows disturbing wetlands just not destroying them).
Have you considered using several shallow wells? You might be able to have them jetted in fairly cheaply. Also, if you have a wetland, you should have a very high water table. Water tends to conduct heat better than soil so you might need less coils than you think - if you use a high conductivity grout.
Best of luck to you.
Alex |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:371
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| 10/26/2008 11:36 PM |
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No complaints from anybody (yet) on the front yard excavation (except me; not happy with new guys grade so third excavator called in to straighten up). I appreciate everybody's thoughts and am a little embarrassed by the cyber-exposure of my "don't ask don't tell" posisition where wetlands are concerned, but anyone in the building trades knows that construction 'boundries' are seldom carved in stone.
j |
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