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ecobuilder
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New Member
Posts:83
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| 06/15/2009 10:57 PM |
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The picture was to big to attach here is a link to a video of the gorund exchange being installed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=way5AvYpnR4&feature=channel_page
Tom |
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"Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is." Jackson Brown |
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dkiernan
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:34
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| 06/16/2009 6:17 AM |
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| Hi Tom
The system quoted was for a closed loop, vertical well. I don't think an open well system is an option as our drinking water well, which is about 600 ft. deep produces about 2 gals./min. I have talked to some neighbors and this seems pretty typical for the area. We have about 6 acres of land, about 3/4 acre of lawn around the house and the rest wooded. There is a lot of ledge in the area, so the few people I managed to get out here all seemed to want to do vertical. I think it may just be easier for them to quote than horizontal. One was a well driller and the other two were plumbing companies. As far as the duct work, the house is a 2600 sq.ft. "L" shaped ranch. Basically two 65' x 26' wings, all one level. Thanks for your help. I will check out your web site.
David |
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kj
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Posts:25
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| 08/28/2009 7:26 PM |
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OK ... after a long hard week of removing all the old cast iron radiators, boiler, fuel tanks and pumping out 212 gallons of fuel oil which my cousin got as a freebie, the contractor brought our new Water Furnace 5 ton Envision unit this morning. It looks nice ... but then beauty is only skin deep. Its heavy ... I helped carry it down the stairs to the basement. Most of the supply and return vents were located and cut today. The contractor will resume next week. I meet with the driller Monday to confirm the drilling site and schedule. We needed a service panel upgrade to 200 amps to support the 20kW "emergency" heating element [ 100 amp breaker] and 60 amp breaker for the unit. That's another $1500 - $2000 and happens Wednesday.
I sure hope all my ducks are properly lined up !! |
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Bergy
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Basic Member
Posts:114
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| 08/28/2009 10:08 PM |
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Kj,
Why 20 kW? that seems a bit high. We are in Eastern Iowa and, normally, install 10 kW.
Bergy
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 08/29/2009 11:43 AM |
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The 20 kW option is the only one certified as 'compatible' with the 5 ton unit we're getting.
Auxiliary Heat Ratings
Auxiliary Heat Electrical Data
KW BTU/HR Min Envision Series Compatibility
Model EAM(L)20 14.4 kw @ 208 VAC 19.2 kW @ 230 VAC 4 stages
49,200 BTU/hr @ 208 VAC 65,500 BTU/hr @ 230 VAC 1500 CFM minimum
Perhaps the kW output at the different voltages [ 208 vs 230 ] makes this sound more drastic of a difference than it is between you in Iowa and me in PA. I know my new 3 ton air-air unit in our Florida home has a 15 kW 'emergency' element.
I do admit I was a bit shocked when the contractor told me I needed a 100 amp breaker for the emergency back-up elelment. I told him I certainly hope this thing doesn't come on very often, cause it'll suck amps like water flowing over Niagara Falls at that rate of draw !
I'll ask him directly when he comes back Monday 'why so much ? ". |
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a0128958
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:451
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| 08/29/2009 5:39 PM |
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Posted By kj on 08/28/2009 7:26 PM
... the contractor brought our new Water Furnace 5 ton Envision unit this morning. It looks nice ... but then beauty is only skin deep. Its heavy ...
I have this same exact unit (minus the heat strips - don't need them in Texas). It's a workhorse, that has been problem free now for two years and counting. Good luck!
Regards,
Bill |
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Real time energy monitoring system at:
http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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Bergy
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:114
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| 08/29/2009 11:38 PM |
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Posted By kj on 08/29/2009 11:43 AM
The 20 kW option is the only one certified as 'compatible' with the 5 ton unit we're getting.
That is simply not true. Any of the strip heaters offered by WFI are "compatible".
We do not size them to heat the entire home, only to provide enough emergency heat to prevent the home from freezing were something to happen to the compressor. If your system has been properly designed and sized, it should provide about 92%~98% of the heat required at design temperature with the strip heater making up the difference.
The 5 ton WF unit will have a total heating capacity(HC) of 43,200 Btu's. A 20 kW strip produces 68,288Btu's. Why would you want more strip capacity than geo capacity? Are you sure your system has been properly designed? Did your contractor low ball the geo size to keep the cost down and win the bid? Did they give you a copy of the heat loss/heat gain calculations for YOUR home? What size geo's were recomended by other bidders??
Sorry to put so many questions in your head this late in the game...but I think you really need to have them answered.
Bergy
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engineer
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1135
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| 08/30/2009 8:57 AM |
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I second all of that.
Any or no heat strips may be installed, subject to an upper limit of total installed KW, having to do with CFM capacity of the unit's blower to adequately blow the heat off the strips.
In fact some utility rebate programs capped the KW of installed strips to manage their peak loads. Not sure if this is still the case
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 08/30/2009 11:38 AM |
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Bergy ... I quoted the specifications manual for my unit, pg. 16 at the top under 'Auxiliary Haet Ratings'. The pdf file is at http://www.waterfurnace.com/literature/envision/SP1585.pdf ... its a 3.7 MB file. I do understand that downward compatibility in design is highly probable, but upward compatibility less probable ... but then I don't know the specific proprietary designs of WF's systems. I'll take your word that the strips are fully compatible. I'll be asking the contractor tomorrow for a better explanation. We are in a climate --- Allegeheny mountains --- where the winter temps will get down below zero for at least a few days to a week typically in the winter. The worst here has been 20-25 below, but that was a rare week back in 1993 ... reminded me of when I lived in Grand Forks, ND.
I did get an estimate from a DX contractor prior to even knowing that Water Furance existed. The DX contractor heat load and tonnage requirements were the same --- 5 ton. He also indicated a 20 kW heat strip [that's over 13 good hair dryers running at once]. The dollar cost quote was less than $1000 more for the DX system over the WF system, so money wasn't a factor in deciding between the two.
On pg. 9 of that same pdf document, the Performance Ratings for our 064 unit are listed as 72,500 BTUh capacity for heating under 'full' mode, vs. 51,500BTUh under 'part' mode... I assume this is stage 2 vs stage 1 data ... you're saying my system will only have 42,500 BTUh capacity ... 42500/12500 = 3.4 tons isn't it ?? ... again I'm no expert here and don't take what I'm saying as provoking an argument ... I'm just trying to understand the details, because 5 ton x 12500 BTU/ton = 62500 BTU. What am I missing ?
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 08/30/2009 11:44 AM |
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| I will be reading the spec manual cover-to-cover tonight. :) |
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 08/30/2009 11:49 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 08/30/2009 8:57 AM
Any or no heat strips may be installed, subject to an upper limit of total installed KW, having to do with CFM capacity of the unit's blower to adequately blow the heat off the strips.
OK ... I get that point now ... missed it on first reading. The blower's capacity would then set the upward compaitibility limit for the size of heat strips. |
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Bergy
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:114
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| 08/30/2009 4:34 PM |
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KJ,
The heating capacity you are looking at is incorrect. Closed loop systems are rated at 30* Entering Water Temperature(EWT). Open loop systems are rated at 50* EWT.
You will have a "closed ground loop". On page 42 is the chart you need to look at. Left hand side...30* EWT, 16 GPM, 1800 CFM, 47,100 Btu heating capacity.
If you are installing an open loop system your numbers would be...
50* EWT, 8 GPM, 1800 CFM, 55,700 Btu heating capacity.
Bergy
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kj
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:25
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| 09/04/2009 3:27 PM |
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Its been a very busy week for the installation of our new system. Bergy ... I looked at the page you referred me to just now. I will have to read the preceding material to understand the meaning of the terms and data ... I will do that this weekend now that I have some time. I didn't get it done previously like I said I would. The contractor's reasoning behind the 20kW backup heater was the 'present' high heat loss our home has due to minimal exterior wall insulation and lots of glass ... single pane glass backed by storm windows. Couple that with my elderly mom's demand that she not be cold in her bedroom, and both contractors [DX and WF] separately recommended the 20 kW unit. Its in place now and the 200 Amp service panel upgrade is complete, so I'll keep it now.
I will be injecting expanding foam into the exterior walls over the next couple weeks [I have TigerFoam ---- slow rise for the cavities, fast rise for the crawlspace surfaces]. We will also begin some window replacements this month, but as I do have lots of glass in the house, that will not be completed until next summer.
The crawl space duct work is now completely installed, along with the major supply and return lines in the open basement. The crawlspace ductwork is interior lined and exterior-wrapped for the large rectangualr supply and return ducts. The 6" supply ducts are not lined inside, but wrapped externally. The installers placed a vent with damper and cap just inside my crawlspace door for providing heat into the crawlspace during the winter to protect the plumbing. The dmaper and cap aree for closing it off during the summer cooling months. I will be applying a coat of expanding spray foam to all accessible areas of my crawlspace this next week and installing R-19 fiberglas batts in the joists.
The remaining ductwork should be completed next Tuesday, followed by wiring the uniot and plumbing the desuperheater to my main water heater. The well locations have been marked and I was told to expect to be informed of a drill date next Tuesday. Since out temps have been in the mid-40's overnight the past week, I'm looking forward to firing this new baby up ! |
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TechGromit
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:443
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| 09/21/2009 11:07 AM |
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Posted By Birdmongo on 03/22/2009 8:21 PM
... Waterfurnace p048 ... $8000 GSHP
That the Exact same model I have, but the crook I used changed me 15k! While it due he installed the unit, a Hot Water heater, electric wiring and some minor duct work, it was hardly 7k worth. This goes to show you how much different prices are from contractor to contractor. I proably could have reccieve a slightly better price if I wasn't locked into the State's approved contractor. (recived special financing from the State of Zoo Jersey)
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stuart.wyss
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:1
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| 11/04/2009 8:55 PM |
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Glad I found this forum, and I'd like to post my system specs:
My wife and I just moved to a house in southeastern PA. It's a 1959 cape with a vaulted ceiling single room addition on the back. The previous owners had hot water baseboard heating with an oil furnace, and a central a/c system with the compressor outside.
We were able to factor in the cost of a Geoexchange/GSHP into the mortgage of the house. The system is finally installed and I wanted to post what we have for any feedback, questions, comments, etc.
House: 2200 sq feet - House was energy audited and found to be in good shape, no obvious leaks, windows are all newer, no missing insulation, etc.
Zoning: 2 zones, upstairs, downstairs. (Basement is unfinished and unheated)
Previously, the owners were paying about $300/mo for oil....I know, a lot! But true. I've seen their receipts.
Geothermal System:
GeoMax 2 with desuperheater - 4 ton unit
Wells - Closed loop, 2 wells, each is 300 feet. Each well contains a double loop of PEX-type tubing for the ground loops
Rehau is the mfgr of the tubing and the double loop system...some special "u bend". Rehau came out to supervise the install!
Oil furnace and baseboards removed, along with 275 gallon oil tank from basement.
40 gallon water heater installed, connected to the desuperheater, and also an AirTap.
AirTap - a mini-heat pump that sits on top of the water heater and pulls heat from the basement air to heat the water if the GSHP isn't on.
GeoMax 2 has a 2 stage compressor, plus the electric backup coil is also 2 stage (10 KW, and 15 KW).
Cost to install: $24,500 total
Presently, the thermostats are set to 68 when we're home, 57 at night, and 57 during the work day, 68 on weekends.
The electric backup coils are switched off at the breaker panel so they'll never come on.
Loop temperature reads 52 degrees.
Air temperature in the ducts is reaching 105 degrees. House warms up very quickly, and the system is very quiet...quieter than the original air handler for the a/c that was in the basement.
I did get 2 bids on the system, both wanted to put in vertical loops, but the estimate was $32,000 and that was for a WaterFurnace.
Much of the original duct work was reused, although my HVAC guy did run a couple extra ducts to the bathrooms, added an upstairs return duct, and also patched some serious gaps in the original ducting (holes big enough to stick your fingers into!).
So far, it's working great...but it's only been installed a week. |
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