Common GSHP Water Loop For Multiple Homes
Last Post 20 Mar 2009 09:14 AM by a0128958. 7 Replies.
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Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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19 Mar 2009 06:44 PM

Does anyone have suggestions for how I could go about researching if it's a good idea (better economics) to put in a common water loop for 5 new (not yet constructed) residential homes in a subdivision, all homes contiguous to each other, each about 2500 s.f., and each being highly energy efficient (SIP walls, metal roofs, foamed attics, GSHPs, ERVs, high-R insulation, CFL lamps).

Location is Houston, where it's a cooling dominated climate.  Without looking at charts, my guess is 'deep down undisturbed earth' temp is 70 degrees or more.

Example questions that come to mind include:

-> Is there any 'economy of scale' building the loop for 5 homes - i.e., can you assume that not all homes will demand full load cooling at the same time, such that you don't have to drill as many holes total?

-> Do drillers charge less if they're on site for a while digging 25 holes versus 5 holes?

-> Surely there are challenges associated with loop 'ownership,' and assuming so, what are the solutions?

-> Etc.

These and other questions that I haven't thought of yet are examples of the questions I'd like to do research to be able to answer.  I would much appreciate it if anyone can point me to source(s) that would help me get started on the research.

Many thanks!

Best regards,

Bill

Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
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(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
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engineerUser is Offline
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19 Mar 2009 07:04 PM
It is likely all homes will peak at nearly the same time - all are in same climate. There might be some slight differences owing to window orientation, etc, but they won't amount to much.

I don't think the economies of scale make this worthwhile for 5 houses. Someone has to be responsible for running it. There would have to be some sort of legal entity created for the common elements, hassles if one homeowner decided they didn't want to pay or retrofitted more geo tonnage to suit their 68 degree thermostat setting when it is 105 outside.

My Dad somehow wound up running the common well system for 10 houses in rural Cow Hampshire and it has been a huge hassle for reasons I describe above - stingy homeowners, bankrupt homeowners, etc.

I could see it making sense for 100 houses - true economies of scale would kick in and enough maintenance fees could be collected to have it professionally administered. I could envision a scenario where individual houses are billed per million btu added / subtracted to / from loop
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
Alex_in_FLUser is Offline
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19 Mar 2009 08:55 PM
Agree mostly with engineer.  I am on the fence about all units peaking at the same time due to differing family living habits.  Also, if somebody doesn't pay then they get cut off from loop use.  You would just need a good contract.  Basically the loop would be like common areas in condo or home owner association.

If you wish to pursue this idea, here are two suggestions:

1.  Have the same dealer install all units simultaneously. He should give nice discount for 5 houses side by side. Same for the loop installer. Ballpark guess - you should get about a 20% discount for buying five at once (maybe more!). They make one sale, visit one site, etc.

2.  Have one person own the loop and lease its use to the others.  No pay no loop use with payment a month in advance.

I think both options are valid.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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19 Mar 2009 10:15 PM
Usual margin is less than 20%, so can't expect thatkind of discount.
If I were to build a geo subdivision, I would do it with a community water tower/or well and run all systems as open loops with discharge reintroduced. Easy prey for terrorists, but great concept for a private sub.
J
Joe Hardin
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joe.amiUser is Offline
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19 Mar 2009 10:24 PM
Oh....I think weather would determine when houses peak so it likely would be same or close timing. However..if we had to go closed loop, the distance between houses could be divided by slinkies or multi pipe trenches, and a constantly running circulator could make it work. If houses didn't peak at the same time all the better.
Loosely 3000 feet of horizontal pipe between houses would probably cover most needs. Brine would circulate wether heat pumps were running or not.....
Joe Hardin
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tuffluckdrillerUser is Offline
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20 Mar 2009 12:44 AM
I wouldn't suggest this because all the eggs are in one basket.

If Home #1 develops a leak, the whole system loses pressure, and Homes 2-5 are down until it gets fixed. Then, how does anyone know the problem lies with home #1's loop? Just doesn't seem worth the hassle. As far as economies of scale for the driller/installer/looper/etc, you should see the same kind of discount, without having to worry about all the legalese and contracts to ensure all 5 are happy.
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
joe.amiUser is Offline
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20 Mar 2009 08:05 AM
Clark makes a good point that suggests my open loop scenario would be superior to the closed.
So go back to the community well where water utilized by the heat pumps is returned to the common supply.
You could only do it in a co-op or closed community as anyone would have access to their neighbor's drinking water.
In this plan however, the failure of one appliance or water line can be isolated and not affect the whole.
The other thing you could do for communal open loop is pump and dump... 1 community well (preferably fills water tower in case of pump failure)....dump into neighborhood storm drains that lead to pond or municipal storms. You could even return this water to the tower if you wanted.
Again as has been mentioned....might be better to buy individual systems in quantity by the time you pay for all of this or run the risk of a crazy neighbor poisoning the community.
J
Joe Hardin
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We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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Bill NeukranzUser is Offline
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20 Mar 2009 09:14 AM

The comments and suggestions here, from all of you, are very much appreciated.

My conclusions is that it's reasonable to expect some economies of scale with respect to an HVAC professional doing 5 geothermal vertical closed-loop installations that are similar in size, common equipment supplier, common material suppliers, single driller, etc.  How competitive the market is, though, that's managing current margins, will manage how much of a discount results for the increased volume of work in the same location (5 lots contiguous to each other).

My conclusion also is that it's not a winning strategy to put in a common loop.  Little possibility of economy of scale (still have to drill all of the wells), a loop problem putting multiple property owners out of commission at the same time, and ownership/responsibility challenge all appear to present significant challenge to a common loop being a winning strategy.

Thanks for the open-loop design suggestion.  This isn't a feasible design option for this location, unfortunately.

A parenthetical conclusion is that these conclusions may not hold if the volumes move from five contiguous lots to a multiple hundred lot subdivision.

A big thanks for such great helpfulness!

Best regards,

Bill

 

 

Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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