I've been asked a couple times recently if I employ sub-contractors on my installations and felt that this was worth addressing. There have been implications in the past that somehow subcontracting = substandard.
There is a very good geo contractor in my area who also happens to be a master electrician. He needn't hire a seperate electrician as he is qualified himself. I on the other hand hire a master electrician with 30 years experience (who is also an inspector like myself). Is one better than the other?
The same contractor I mentioned above has his own back hoe. I on the other hand use a contractor's with 20 to 30 years of experience who can stand a 30,000 pound excavator on it's toes to pass between trees. The fella mentioned above with the back hoe (when I used him) left a site in such a disgraceful condition after backfill, that I felt compelled to employ a different company to re-grade the job. 
Of course I do the sheet metal work and I've done the plumbing myself or used another experienced plumber to do the job. Our flush and fusion guy has nearly 20 years and I do not use anyone (save helpers) with less than 10 years trade experience.
So while I might be capable, I don't do every facet of the job myself or with in-house staff. Is that really a bad thing? Do you want an excavator to be a plumber or an electrician to be a tin knocker? Or do you want to employ a company with a payroll high enough to keep an in house, plumber, electrician, excavator and hvac expert?
When shopping I suggest you ask about the experience of your contractor's subs. If they tell you they are doing the excavation, ask them their background, experience and certification level as an operating engineer. If they suggest that they will do the electric themselves, ask to see their masters certification (more often than not they are working as agents under a retired contractors cursory supervision).

IMHO subcontractors = superior skill.
If you hire AMI, I will be using subcontractors.

Good Post Joe

Nice explanation, Joe. I have read geo customers complaining when they were expected to hire their own electrician, excavator, driller, ... to complete the project.

I am glad you're back Dewayne. Missed reading your posts here.


Regards, Masoud

While I wouldn't suggest that people be put off by companies that employ sub contractors, I think I would encourage folks to avoid contractor's that don't have established relationships with sub-contractors. If you want turn key service any contractor should be able to provide it.

Joe,

I have to agree with you.  Any time anyone gets a project done they want it done right and built to last.  (for me anyway).  When our house was built so many years ago the builder used may sub contractors to finish the house.  Most were fine.  We specified a company for our well and while we were out of town the builder used someone one else.  It took them 6 week to drill our water well.  Another issues was the org. furnace was the incorrect size per our order.   It was correct for the finished floor space at the time but it did not take into account the soon to be finished space. 

Any way the furnace was changed (as far as I know) and has been a great furnace for the past 19 years.  The well was put in and it supplies water just fine.  My issues would have been solved at the beginning if the builder would have communicated with the one sub and with themselves on the well.  It was all in writing.

My point and I think part of your point was communication is the key.  It takes time to communicate but it is better then a whole lot of issue later. 


I would rather pay a little more now for someone to do it right the first time and forever.  Then pay less now and have the contractor on speed dial so they can come back and fix it time and time again for free.

Good points.
Folks are always entitled to use their own subs and we often offer "sweat equity" options to folks that do or arrange for some of the work themselves. Bear in mind though that your geo contractor is acting as a general contractor with a system and relationships in place with their subs. This is handled in different ways by different contractors;
A job I did 2 years ago for some friends who had an addition put on, had a general who would not call me at all. If he needed something from me he would tell my friends and have them call. I gave him my cell number several times but he felt it was not his responsibility to contact me. Though a real a**h##e his position was not improper. He did not employ me, he did not benefit from a previous working relationship or discount from me (that would have entitled him to a modest mark-up on my portion of the job) and was therefore not responsible for coordination with me.
While most of us are not that hard nosed, if you wish to recieve a 100% credit for assuming the responsibility for something, then your geo contractor is not responsible for training, providing material or doing anything other than telling you when they're ready for "your guy".
While I don't happen to mark up my subs, I do not always offer 100% discount for their time simply because the homeowner's guy may require extra time from me or may not provide services that my guys consider a routine part of their job.
One homeowner's electrician asked me when I would have the power shut off to the house so he could change the meter housing. I honestly answered I had no idea who to call for that as my electrician routinely handled it.
So one thing that definately needs to be communicated is who is responsible for what. That should be in your contract and no changes (such as hiring a well driller while your away), should take place without prior written approval. A general who does that runs the risk of buying the well for you. By the same token, you could find yourself responsible for extras if your sub's work is incomplete or causes delays...so make sure you are working with a sub you trust.
J

This is kind of a side note to this, but I am getting a tranquility 27 unit (5 ton), and I also got a quote from Water Furance. The water furance guy said I was responsible for the loop, plumbing, and electrician. The Climatemaster guy, brough guys out from the company that would do the loop, gave me the contact information of his good friend who is a licensed plumber, and my geo guy is taking care of the electricity.

I provide one contract that includes the services of myself and all subs for one price. I guess I have a little trouble with a guy that tells you who to use but doesn't coordinate the affair for you. They likely have everything worked out to go smoothly for you, but doesn't it require more of your time to contract each one seperately?
Because of funny laws in MI that tax you on gross not net I may ask buyers to write checks to subs for their portion, but I handle coordination with the subs. That's just me, everyone has there own way of doing biz.
J

I think most people get concerned because it seems like short term human nature would be to get the most money from the job with the least work. Obviously this isn't the case with professionals who are all interested in re-hiring and being rehired by each other for the jobs, and someone assumes responsibility for overall quality. I know you, for example, do care about the entire job.
I think there are a lot of cases in construction where there is no coordination, no one takes responsibility, and everyone tries to get things done the cheapest. I kind of felt that way about how my condo was built, with at least the example of the subcontractor for the paint just spray painted everything including right over the ventilliation grills so they were stuck to the wall. That's what most people worry about in subcontractors. I'd say to remind them that you're insuring their work, and that they (especially in this economy) want to work with you again, so they won't be short changing anything to save a few bucks and lose more on lost jobs in the future.

  Although I agree with the quality and working relationship with sub contractors as stated in previous.  I disagree with one company holding the umbrella of money. 
  Our problem is that as the driller we have the ability to inflict the most economic pain to a project in the shortest amount of time.  We need to keep capital on the move, not tied up somewhere waiting for a draw or payment or worse spent somewhere else.
  We prefer to hold a seperate contract either with the builder or homeowner that encompasses only  our portion of the job.  We also require 1/2 down to mobilise equipment, and balance due 30 days period no exceptions.  If they cannot meet that payment schedule we gladly refer them to our competition. 

I guess you could look at that in more than one way WaterP. Your demands are not so different from everybody else's and wether it's a general contractor or a homeowner, in every case someone controls the money. I gladly arrange for direct payment to my subs on completion, however if the homeowner insists, I will manage the money. In a perfect world all our jobs are less than 30 days start to finish, and payments are in thirds- down, at excavation or drilling and completion.
No exceptions is a harsh statement however and likely would cost you a job or two.
J

 the statement  "no exceptions" should not be considered harsh,  it is just policy.  The jobs I do lose are gladly scarfed up by my competition, and invariably they get strung out on their money,  making us stronger and them weaker.

Wp,
I'm not criticizing, just pleased for you that the market where you are allows such inflexibility.
Frankly I couldn't employ you here as other (capable) drillers are willing to share risk with me. I'm sure it's a regional thing, but in my area you are able to drive out of the city at 70+ MPH around 5 PM as 30% of our neighbors are unemployed. My subs get paid when I do.
I do safegaurd both our interests as well as I can, but since my subs essentially enjoy sales from my efforts, certain concessions are required.
Hope things continue well for you.
J

Hi Joe,

No offense taken, just sharring info.
In my market the drillers were first to the geo party and the hvac followed.  We offer training to new hvac who want to get in the game.  We do a huge amount of marketing and have an internet as well as community presance.  A lot of hvac share my sales effort, not the other way around.

I am sure the economy will shape up for everyone soon.  Please do not think that everything in my kneck of the woods is all peachy.  I am expanding out farther and farther to maintain the same volume we onc enjoyed 15 miles from home base.

We also have a commercial division that is consistantly busy when we are not[residential] and visa versa.  That helps flatten out the cash flow alot.