How many KW a day ...
Last Post 05 Oct 2009 06:08 AM by joe.ami. 12 Replies.
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asadmalojaUser is Offline
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05 May 2009 06:55 PM
I've reading this forum for a while and I am trying to make a decision on whether to go with geothermal. I know I probably would need to add lots of information about my house, but I will ask anyway (and thanks for the answers):

How many KW a day does geothermal system add to your electricity consumption (this is assuming that aux heaters do not kick in)?
joe.amiUser is Offline
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05 May 2009 11:30 PM
Look up the thread "year in review"
J
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DickRussellUser is Offline
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06 May 2009 07:38 AM
For a quick answer:

1. Get the house's thermal envelope heat loss, which must include the effects of air infiltration, solar gain, etc., as BTU/hour for the average 24-hour temperature. Multiply by 24 to get BTU/day, divide by 3412 to get KWH. Subtract the KWH used for lighting, appliances, etc within the thermal envelope. The difference is KWH for just keeping the house warm. Divide again by the coefficient of performance (COP) for the GSHP, to get the power into the heat pump needed to lift that much heat out of the ground and into the inside of the house.

2. Get the cost/KWH from the electric bill. The rate for heating may be lower than for general use in your area. Multiply KWH by $/KWH.

Once you have done the calculations for the heat loss for the house, the rest is a one-minute calculation. But clearly you need to have a good analysis of the heat loss of the building done.

For example, if your house is losing heat at some point at the rate of 24,000 BTU/hr (2 "tons"), dividing by 3412 gives the loss as 7.03 KW. If your fairly new GSHP has a COP of 4.5 overall, dividing gives 1.56 KW rate of power use. At ten cents per KWH (not bad, depending on where you are), that would be 15 cents per hour, $3.75/day, $112/month.

An indirect way to get overall heat loss would be to use the fuel bill for the present house (unless you are building new), get the heat loss for the whole heating season from fuel use and convert to BTU, adjusting for approximate heating system efficiency, then to KWH and finally to $ for using GSHP instead of the fossil fuel.

If you are building new, first make the house "very well insulated" (arguably superinsulated), then worry about how to provide that heat. The whole GSHP installation will cost substantially less for a superinsulated house, obviously.

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06 May 2009 09:32 AM

The only thing I might add to the previous post is that a 2ton unit might not be the correct size, even though you are only using 2 tons of heat on average the unit has to be designed to meet design load. Designed to meet the homes need at the lowest experienced temps.
   Although some manufacturers and designers are claiming COP of 4.5 I am skeptical of this. On the project we just finished we are data logging the energy being put into the building and logging the energy consumed for the heat pump. This will give me a real COP not calculations from the manufacturers engineering department. From all of my research on systems that have actually being logged and record, a COP of 3 appears to be a good number for cold climates. I hope that by tweeking the system ever so slightly I can bring this up to a COP of 4.
 I use a free program to do a rough heat loss, which also has a cost calculator built into it. After using this program and then having the energy modeling done with a DOE program, I found the calculations for energy loss to be fairly accurate. Then it is a simple matter of putting in your energy costs, fuel, efficiency and the program will give you annual costs and ten year out costs. It also has a co2 calculator that shows your carbon output. I frequently use this to tweek the envelope of the building, by added insulation to a wall this program will quickly show me how much energy and more importantly money will be saved by making this change. upgrading of windows can be quickly calculated as well as different methods of heating. This program is specifically designed for heating and does not calculate cooling loads. I have found the biggest area for savings to be air-infiltration, change the air infiltration rate, recalculate and you can instantly see the difference in Btu's lost and cost difference.
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm

check it out, it is the easiest program I have found and after confirming accuracy with DOE-2 energy modeling program. I use this for a first source of reference when computating energy losses and needs for new construction. calculate out an old, poorly insulated, drafty home and then recalculate with an improved envelope and heating system and you can see how your energy costs can change. This is one way I use to justify the way I build, and get a fairly accurate estimate of heating costs associated.

Tom Pittsley
[email protected]
www.eebt.org

"Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is." Jackson Brown
DickRussellUser is Offline
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06 May 2009 09:52 AM
I have used the REScheck program to get total envelope U*A. I checked one run against my own spreadsheet to see how the heat losses stacked up. Overall they seemed to compare well, although my total number was somewhat higher because REScheck doesn't provide for heat loss due to air infiltration or ventilation through a HRV. Nor does REScheck allow for heat loss down through a basement slab, but only the slab edge effects.

Tom, have you used REScheck and compared it with any of the other tools you use?
asadmalojaUser is Offline
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06 May 2009 02:08 PM
Thank you all. I'll need to find the R values and other numbers that I need to plug into the calculator.
OnaUser is Offline
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22 May 2009 01:52 PM
This link shows my usage through most of the winter. I have a 1950 sq ft home in upstate NY (80 yrs old). I should be updating this in the next few weeks - I've been out of the country for almost a month so the website is behind in data.
http://www.geochoices.com/results.html
TechGromitUser is Offline
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22 May 2009 02:37 PM
Simple enough question, but the answer is very complicated. The answer will vary house to house depending on Square footage of heated space, Heat loss and how warm/cool you keep you house. This month's electric bill was $136 for me, I only used the heating/cooling system a few days, mostly both zones have been off this month. So I'd say my base electric bill without any heat/cooling is $100 a month. So during the coldest months during the winter, my heating system adds $300 to the electric bill. You also have to remember there is no gas, oil, wood or coal bill, electric is my total utility bill. It's funny I've always been told electric is the most expensive way to heat a house, and my house is all electric. 

   
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22 May 2009 02:40 PM
Posted By DickRussell on 05/06/2009 7:38 AM
For a quick answer:


For the easy answer, just disconnect your heating system one month during the winter and compare it to one month when you used it. Compare numbers. minor side effects frozen pipes and frost bite.

 
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22 May 2009 02:44 PM
Posted By ecobuilder on 05/06/2009 9:32 AM

Although some manufacturers and designers are claiming COP of 4.5 I am skeptical of this.

Tom Pittsley
[email protected]
www.eebt.org


It does sound high, COP greatly depends on the temperature of the Entering Water Temperature (EWT) of the water into the system, bet you have no trouble getting a COP of 4.5 in South Florida... than again who would want heat in South Florida?
Don LloydUser is Offline
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03 Oct 2009 11:18 AM
To pljmb You emailed a question to me abut my geothermal system. I use my well as my heat source. I send the cooler water back to the same well. But in case of a very cold winter, the aquifer may cool down reducing the efficiency. The system automatically senses this and diverts the discharge water behind our home toward a stream on the property. This stream is not used as a heat source since the supply is not reliable. Don Lloyd
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03 Oct 2009 01:10 PM
Posted By ecobuilder on 05/06/2009 9:32 AM

... Although some manufacturers ... are claiming COP of 4.5 I am skeptical of this. On the project we just finished we are data logging the energy being put into the building and logging the energy consumed for the heat pump. This will give me a real COP not calculations from the manufacturers engineering department. From all of my research on systems that have actually being logged and record, a COP of 3 appears to be a good number for cold climates. I hope that by tweeking the system ever so slightly I can bring this up to a COP of 4. ...


I'd go back and look again, at least at the WaterFurnace Envision series.  They advertise at 5.0+ COP.

I also have a data logging system.  (It displays real time energy usage at http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ , include instantaneous COP when in heating mode).  Below is a chart, from historical data, showing that in Feb. 2009, my COP was about 4.8 for my 5 ton WaterFurnace Envision unit, while running in 1st stage.

I'm calculating COP exactly the way WF does. 

So at least for a warm climate (Dallas) a COP of 4.5+ seems reasonable to achieve in the field, not just in the engineering department.  (I'm closed loop.) 

Best regards,

Bill

Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
joe.amiUser is Offline
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05 Oct 2009 06:08 AM
Our op cost calculators predict average COP and SEER. House I'm working up now, 3.64 to 3.72. Not what you expect when you read about record COP's but still very efficient compared to fossil systems. In MI we don't spend a lot of midwinter on first stage.
Joe
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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