inquisitive
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| 06/15/2009 11:15 PM |
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I have been interested in geothermal for some time. But while this site is full of info it does not seem to be full of fair info.. Several people seem to think they will be getting a 30 percent tax credit.. Isn't it actually 30 percent or or 1500.00.. At least this is my understanding.. Am I incorrect?? Also I am from north central minnesota living on south side of large lake. heating has always been propane in poorly insulated home built in 1970.. Never did we ever go through the amount of fuel usage I am reading about on this site. While not cheap and with several weeks below the zero mark... I am having real hard time believing I could recoup my cost in 5 to 7 years. Just by doing some quick math in my head , I still figure the difference between my current cost with newer fossil fuel system installed. 5000.00 installed plus 1500.00 rebate better than 36-50 k. Maybe this is why i am so confused.. I know Uncle Sam is not going to give me back 10k on new geothermal system.... Need more info on cost of maintaince for geo and RELIABILITY... LOSS OF EFFICIENCY
Thanks for any light that can be shed |
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geo fan
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| 06/16/2009 4:54 AM |
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Posted By inquisitive on 06/15/2009 11:15 PM
I have been interested in geothermal for some time. But while this site is full of info it does not seem to be full of fair info.. Several people seem to think they will be getting a 30 percent tax credit.. Isn't it actually 30 percent or or 1500.00..
I think most info on this site is very fair , most salesmen and spamers get call out pretty quick , the old law (08) read 30% up to 2k, the American recovery and reinvestment act essentially removed the " up to 2k" now this is not free money what it means is the gov. would take 10k less of your money . And while the fine print has not been written yet ( IRS ) And not all units quilify . The law as written expesses essentially the same tax incentives as solar , which is the 30% .
A whole lot more info is needed to even take a stab at your ROI,
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joe.ami
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| 06/16/2009 7:53 AM |
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Posted By inquisitive on 06/15/2009 11:15 PM
I have been interested in geothermal for some time. But while this site is full of info it does not seem to be full of fair info..Need more info on cost of maintaince for geo and RELIABILITY... LOSS OF EFFICIENCY
Thanks for any light that can be shed
Don't know how big your lot is, but that would be a grossly high installation cost if you have room for horizontal loops and would still be high for verticals in the Midwest. Installation costs are higher on the East Coast (I presume for reasons of business operating cost and the nature of what they drill through on verticals).
As GF said, we don't put up with the carpet baggers long. So if folks say things they can't support they are called out.
We know geo works, and we know that paybacks are less than 5 years in many cases (midwest horizontal loop against $1.99 propane). Now in fairness, we know that $1.99 is not the price of propane right now, but in fairness 1 year ago it was $2.75/gal. We can only deal in averages (weather, fuel prices etc.).
My thread "year in review" was from geo users and showed their energy consumption. These are actual experiences not a snow job.
To figure out your ROI, we need to know your heat loss (man J load), price of propane, price/KW, temperature you'd like to maintain in the home, # of occupants and nearest major city. Though at the end of the day, why not have a local geo guy out to prep this for you.
The tax credit (in fairness) you are pointing to, is for air source heat pumps.
So in fairness while I'm not offended by your questions (though I can't resist teasing the tone of them;), I believe you would probably benefit from geo and need to do a lot more home work. I say this, as someone who will not see a penny of your investment so in fairness, you should take that kind of opinion to heart.
Good Luck,
Joe |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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inquisitive
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| 06/27/2009 9:20 PM |
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lot size is 200 x 200, house is 2400 sq ft ranch with crawl space underneath. new anderson windows and doors installed last summer (That was a good investment) last winters fuel cost was 650.00 contracted at 2.48. this years contract is 1.52. keep temp around 69 degrees during winter and only use a/c on humid or really hot days. And after reading some of the blogs about humidity issues there is some cause for concern. after all the idea is to be comfortable in all situations. Otherwise what is the sense. number of Occupants is two. Closest city Alexandra Minnesota
Thank you about the info on the tax credit thing.. But even Geofan stated it is not law as of yet. What type of units or systems get taxs break?? As stated looking for information. I like making informed decisions , not planning on buying system tomorrow
As for the tone thing. Are you saying legitimate concerns are not invited on this stie.... I have become sceptical and cautious with age. For example: noticed all accounts are on really new systems. Also my questions about reliability and loss of effieiency were not even addressed. How about cost of maintaining equipment.. Are these not legitimate concerns or questions asked by your customers
Thanks again
spamer/Salesman/carpet bagger |
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geo fan
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| 06/27/2009 11:23 PM |
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excuse my brevity , it is late
The law is written , tax code is not , Equipment must be energy star rated , a list is found on there site
These systems dehumidify just as good if not better then any cooling system , the issue is if the system is not running , it wont dehumidify
Most posters are here with new systems because they are excited to talk about there new system , People that have had theres for 10 years are all talked out ( most likely )
A properly designed system will not suffer any effeciency loss ( except right near end of life )
Maint includes filter changes
There are things that can go wrong like any heating or cooling system so its not a horrible idea to have it checked every year or so to catch things like that .
Relibility , installed right , is a non issue . The engine of the equipment is the same stuff made by the same people as allmost every cooling / heat pump system . again stuff can go wrong ( which is why I have a job ) but with equal or less frequency then any other system you may put in
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jonr
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| 06/28/2009 7:10 AM |
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Being on a lake, you could save some money with an open loop system.
But if you are spending around $500/year on an existing fossil fuel system, then we know that a geothermal system cannot back in 5-7 years, even if it had zero operating costs.
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geo fan
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| 06/28/2009 8:35 AM |
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you must have very good insulation or central minisotta has warm winters ?
650 is a very very low number for a house that size .
In my experience in ct every 2thousand sq will burn about a thousand gallons on average.
excuse me for being sceptical but I find many people have no idea what they acutal spend on heat .
Triple pane windows are great but I doubt they will reduce more then 25%
Unless you burn wood /pellets 24/7 your numbers dont make sense, thats the heating bill of someone in NC |
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retiredeng
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| 06/28/2009 9:54 AM |
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If I were you (living in Minnesota or
any of the mid-west states) I would stay away from any heating source
that uses electricity.
According to
http://www.americaspower.org/The-Facts/
Minnesota generates 62% of it's electricity using coal. After last
Fridays action on the so-called Climate Bill your electric rates
could end up double from what they are now.
According to the data at the above link
the states that could get hit the hardest would be Indiana and Ohio.
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geo fan
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| 06/28/2009 12:40 PM |
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ohh americaspower aka the coal industry
The same people that claim there is such a thing as clean coal has 0% credibility
The people that want a pat on the back for cutting sulfer dioxicide only after the clean air act forced them to . previouse to which they spent big bucks on ther junk science and marketing trying to convince people they where not giving them cancer . bravo bravo .
If I where you I wouldnt live anywhere near a coal plant anyway , and there threats to jack up there prices to counter there fines for polluting your air dont hold much water with me . the fact is this is designed to push them out of buisness . They wont be able to jack up there prices if a whole bunch of clean techs are entering the market and pumping out kilowatts close to at cost because there proffits are subsidized by the polluters fines .
"They're really good at drawing some general conclusions, and the results (of the CBO and EPA studies) imply that cap-and-trade will come at a relatively low cost to consumers," she said. "But these models are really bad at predicting how new technology will impact the bill. And they're not good at major shifts, such as a shift to renewables."
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geo fan
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retiredeng
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| 06/28/2009 2:36 PM |
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The purpose of the link to americaspower.org was
NOT to promote coal as a generation fuel it is a link to states data,
when you click on your home state in the linked page you could see
what % of the electricity in your state is generated by coal
burning.
The bill that passed the House last
week will have it's greatest effect on the coal power generating states. These states
appear to have the lowest cost of electricity and if this bill is
passed by the Senate (which seems unlikely) those states will see a
substancial increase in their electric rates.
Minnesota as was the original post on
this link gets over 60% of it's electric power from coal and anybody
contemplating a geo system in one of the coal burning states should put some sort of price acceleration
into their calculations for justification purposes.
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inquisitive
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| 06/28/2009 2:41 PM |
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Thank you for the great responses.. looots more homework to do. The fuel cost are correct. no fireplace or other extra source of heating. The idea of open loop sounds great but how is the water filtered and doubt if the dnr would allow such a system on a public lake up here.. dnr has more power than the police, and more rules and regulations then can be imagined. they are worse than even the worst goverment out there.. and normal laws do not apply to them.
Trust me winters are not warm.. have seen temps below zero for 3 weeks straight
again thank you for all the good info
carpetbagger |
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TechGromit
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| 06/28/2009 2:54 PM |
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Posted By inquisitive on 06/15/2009 11:15 PM
I have been interested in geothermal for some time. But while this site is full of info it does not seem to be full of fair info.. Several people seem to think they will be getting a 30 percent tax credit.. Isn't it actually 30 percent or or 1500.00.. At least this is my understanding.. Am I incorrect??
...
I know Uncle Sam is not going to give me back 10k on new geothermal system.... Need more info on cost of maintaince for geo and RELIABILITY... LOSS OF EFFICIENCY
...
Thank you about the info on the tax credit thing.. But even Geofan stated it is not law as of yet. What type of units or systems get taxs break??
There is a tax credit of 30% of the cost of a Energy Star complaint Geothermal system, there is no limit on how much you can write off, but I'm sure if you claim it cost you $200,000 to install your geothermal system, the IRS will be verifying the information. There was a limit before of up to $2,000 in 2008, but that has since been removed for 2009.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3
Techinally Uncle Sam isn't giving you anything back, it's a tax write off on what you pay in taxes. If you don't pay any taxes, your not getting anything back. I do beleive that if your tax write-offs exceed what you paid in taxes, you can carry over the remainer of the write off the next tax year.
The geothermal tax credit is law now, the IRS hasn't written up the 2009 rules/regulations yet based on the new tax law changes.
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joe.ami
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| 06/29/2009 7:49 PM |
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Posted By inquisitive on 06/27/2009 9:20 PM
As for the tone thing. Are you saying legitimate concerns are not invited on this stie.... I have become sceptical and cautious with age. For example: noticed all accounts are on really new systems. Also my questions about reliability and loss of effieiency were not even addressed. How about cost of maintaining equipment.. Are these not legitimate concerns or questions asked by your customers
Thanks again
spamer/Salesman/carpet bagger
Skeptical is fine. Saying we are unfair in the info we offer is a fluffy way to say "liar, liar pants on fire".
I tried to very gently point out the flaws in your comments.
If you choose not to believe...... it still costs me nothing.
Reliability, longevity, safety and operating cost are superior to anything else you could own. If you haven't seen anything about older equipment, you haven't gone back far enough on this forum.
j
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Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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ground.loop@yahoo.com
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Posts:9
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| 07/01/2009 9:02 PM |
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carpet bagger
based on your cost for heating your home you only used about 250 gallons of propane, I have to agree with others there is something wrong with that number, an average home in southern wisconsin needs about 18 btus per sq foot. ( thats after doing many many manual J's of existing and new homes) a gas water heater will use 3/4 of that fuel just to make your hot water.
another thing is an open loop is leaving you with two issues. one is the use of natural resources that are at a premium. and the other is bacterial infiltration into your system, not to mention you are close the nations coldest spot in the winter "Frost bite Falls" you had better make sure your discharge is protected from freezing shut.
although ground loops do get colder as winter time goes on the efficiency drop due to that is minimal to the cost to increase the size of the loop to prevent deeper temperatures.
annual maintenance is a key to proper efficiency, this true with fossil fule and air source systems
Your payback is not just based on current saving this year. It is the result of savings over the lifetime of the unit ASHRAE says it is close to 25 years. take that savings and fiqure in the annual rise in energy and divide that by the years of longevity and you come up with your payback. Or just use the ROI method and where else can you get a 15% or better ROI and trust it?
Even if you borrow the money at 6% you end up with a possitive cash flow right away.
not to menition the environmental aspects of not burning fossil fuels to achieve it. But as in the upper comments the coal burning plants do come into play on that one. |
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SpyderCKE
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| 07/02/2009 2:05 AM |
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This is my first post, and as a new geothermal customer, it'll be the most gratifying purchase you'll ever make. The tax credit makes it nearly competitive with a new natural gas furnace, but as long as prices escalate according to history, it won't be more than ~5 years that you start plowing into the black. I'm in Wisconsin, and I run "A/C" guilt free (100% renewable electricity source to be sure).
Do it. |
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