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neotobeo
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| 07/02/2009 12:18 PM |
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This is a brand new home; built with 8 inch ICF, open cell foam in the attic; daylight basement; low E windows; no passive solar heat gain with the positioning of the home relative to the sun (I did my homework). All of this was known and factored in when the system was bid and I was told 5 tons was adequate; I added the second unit for future needs (home theater). All of the filters are new and clean. The five ton is zoned x 4 with the two zones in the basement never needing anything. The two zones upstairs (master and greatroom). Dedicating the 5 ton to the 600 sf greatroom = at best keeps it at the current temp 82-84 right now with ambient outside temp 95. Eventually the compressor will cut out (did once this morning already).
As the homeowner I trusted Earthlinked and it's reps to do the right thing (heat load calculations, duct work requirements) - I am an expert in my field; not in HVAC. I didn't cut corners on cost - I paid for and thought I was getting the Rolls Royce. |
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jonr
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| 07/02/2009 2:12 PM |
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I would measure the temps coming and going to each loop and enter them here.
Unfortunately, accurate loop thermal testing is not a common industry practice. |
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tuffluckdriller
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| 07/02/2009 2:48 PM |
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You should have gotten the rolls royce, too.
You mentioned that he changed the capacitor, right? What type of grout was used? And what are the loop temperature differences (into vs. out of the ground)?
Was anything done to determine the actual ground temp? Who was the installer? |
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Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
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geo fan
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| 07/02/2009 4:34 PM |
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| Clark , as a side note I think the fact there is a second system on the same home operating properly is very telling . |
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neotobeo
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| 07/02/2009 4:59 PM |
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Thanks for the info. I left a message with Joe Parsons, haven't heard back. Then per Clark's recommendation - called Jerre Wilson who listened to my concerns and had a gentleman named Russ (Tech Dept) get with the installer. Turns out our area calls for V1.5 loops (we have V1). Finally, we are getting somewhere. The recommendation remains to use a 2-2.5ton air source condensor on the vapor line to desuperheat the refrigerant prior to entering the (now known) undersized loop field. On the 2 ton unit an additional loop will be added (it, too, has been high pressure limiting and needing to be manually reset) = V1.5x2. On the 5 ton unit additional loops are not easily done (without a 30 ton excavator to move boulders). I will keep you in the loop as this progresses - and hopefully we will be sitting in a more comfortable home.
I have pored over the ETI performance manuals - haven't found where it specifies that amount of loop needed (V1 versus V1.5) - does anyone have a document that indicates this? |
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geo fan
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| 07/02/2009 6:46 PM |
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I dont know about that . If you are will to concede a significant effeciency drop from spec ( goes double for heating )
while Im sure it will fix your problem your left with a funky hybrid , not a RR
a excavator around hear runs 400 or so per day , drill rig has to come back anyway for the small one . and they dont have to buy a condenser , gut it , wire it . I would realy like to see , or hear this repaired the right way , not the easy way . And the funny thing about going through something ,and getting it fixed 100% , the sence of releif increases by a factor of 10 compared to 99% |
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jonr
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| 07/02/2009 7:45 PM |
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I agree - sounds like a excuse and band-aid for a faulty loop and doesn't explain the smaller unit working fine.
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neotobeo
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| 07/02/2009 7:51 PM |
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Earthlinked makes and recommended the air source condensor. Why would they recommend this if it impacts the efficiency that much?
My goal isn't to have the easy fix - I paid top dollar for this system and was anticipating perfection based on many of the members of this forum's recommendations - my goal is to have a Geothermal Heat Pump system to heat and cool my house with the added benefit of domestic hot water. |
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geo fan
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| 07/02/2009 8:51 PM |
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that much is realitive , at the very least your running an additional fan.
I would be carefull, with recomendations . Not that they mislead you by any means . Did you bring up the gutted condenser first or did they ?
If you where to say this is what my contractor want to do what do you think , they may think I dont want to burn a bridge , and it will work so why not .
If you asked is the best thing to do fix the feild and they said no add a condenser . well lets just say I would be surprised
Also a more Major issue with heating that condeser is going to freeze up , so accept it loose the added benifit the condenser offers and loose capacity and eff. end up leaning on the aux more then you would have , or set up a defrost controll to thaw it out which would give you the same problem .
Im ok if Im wrong and realy dont want to disparage anyone , but my first priority here is maintaning the overall reputation of geo ( double for dx ) and this fix smells fishy |
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tuffluckdriller
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| 07/02/2009 10:34 PM |
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As far as the air source condenser, it doesn't have a compressor, just a coil and fan. I completely agree that this shouldn't be needed, but it is an option.
In the EarthLinked manual's performance charts, if looking at the cooling performance tables for 60 deg. earth or higher, you'll see that the column for performance of a V1 loop is blank. That means it's not to be used for cooling with that earth temp. If there's no performance data for that loop, duh, how could it be sized to be correct, anyway? Not duh to you, but duh to the installer...
I've always thought St. George should be figured for 60 deg. earth or higher. Your installer has done V1 loops exclusively there (as far as I know) and needs to look at changing. As a driller and EarthLinked sales rep, I'd rather see him put in the proper loop. I really would expect that I'd have to if in his shoes. I just like satisfied customers.
I'd also like to point one more thing out. If ANY geothermal heat pump were installed for you with a short loop, you'd have the same problems. It's not because it's DX. Rather, it's because a chance was taken that shouldn't have been. |
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Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
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joe.ami
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| 07/03/2009 6:37 AM |
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Posted By jonr on 07/02/2009 2:12 PM
I would measure the temps coming and going to each loop and enter them here.
Unfortunately, accurate loop thermal testing is not a common industry practice.
Gee, Jonr with all your knowledge and experience, what temperatures would you like to see here? Your lack of understanding of DX makes the ignorance of this comment lost on you, but not us.
J
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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joe.ami
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| 07/03/2009 6:42 AM |
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Neo,
I would only offer the air source condenser to a customer with a tight budget that wanted to save some on drilling expense. I would suggest to your installer that the economy installation is not what was proposed.
Clark, since they have 100' loops can loops just be added or do we have to revert to the 75's or 150's?
j |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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neotobeo
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Posts:21
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| 07/03/2009 1:39 PM |
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Thanks all, Joe I will do everything I can to get the loops put in. A scorned customer out thousands of dollars can be problematic.
Jerre:
I believe I copied you on this message to Joe, however, wanted to make sure you are aware. I spoke with you yesterday concerning our issue:
New home, built with 8 inch ICF below slab to roof, attic insulated with open cell foam and blown in, low e windows, no passive solar heat gain with appropriate positioning of home on lot. We did not cut any corners when it came to energy efficiency (Every bulb is CFL, low flow faucets) - including (unfortunately) the decision to go with an Earthlinked DX system. Through your website we hooked up with the installer (driller/loop guy) - he did the heat/cool load calculations and proposed putting the 5 ton system in - I had him add the 2 ton unit for additional cooling for need I anticipated with future installation of a home theater. The company he worked with Eason Mechanical started the installation last fall and then he up and disappeared. I was forced to pay an additional $7000 to get the rest of the installation done. Once in the home we were comfortable (starting in March - Early June) all cool months with limited need to run the heat pump as the home is very tight and needs little heating. Now that we have 105 degree days and 90 degree nights the 5 ton unit will barely keep the inside temp below 85 degrees and then must be reset dozens of times per day as it kicks out - as previously indicated - the electric meter is spinning yet not cold air; we are incredibly uncomfortable in our new home - again we didn't cut corners. For less money we could be comfortable with air source units - though I have promised to never again build a new home, thats the direction I would go. Additionally, I had to have the second HVAC company out the other day and they found the run capacitor was bad and the compressor was taking 40-50amps and near melt down - thus far that is the second part that has been replaced - I am unimpressed.
After a rough year, we had planned on a family vacation and would like to be able to leave the home without having to worry about the above/below problems. Earthlinked has a 2 week window get make this right - a quick response and corrective action is needed - otherwise I am looking at an additional $8000 for the addition of a air source heat pump in the attic to provide relief and make the home safe to us to leave.
I had my father convinced that replacing his furnace with an Earthlinked system was the way to go - I cannot in good conscious recommend he go through with the installation and all of the pain, suffering, and bloated expenses that will go along with it.
Finally, I appreciate your quick attention to this and would request the remedy be swift.
Joe:
Following up on my issue with both of our Earthlinked Systems: 2 ton and 5 ton. Neither working well, house very hot, both high pressure limiting and needing to be manually reset (does that shorten the life of the compressors? Not my fault, will Earthlinked replace them when they fail?). Oh, and we have $50,000 into this system. I have had another HVAC guy here who is proposing an installation of a 3.5 ton air source heat pump to provide relief in the upstairs ($8000). Found out yesterday the loops in both units are undersized for our area. I feel like we were swindled by your company. I went through your website - was referred to the installer - he referred us a HVAC guy he worked with. We got the bid after heat calcs done. The installation started and the HVAC guy bolted costing us an additional $7000 to have another HVAC company come in and complete the installation. We now find that after $50,000 of expense we have the following: an insanely expensive water heater (it does do that well), a high electric (both compressors spin the electric meter like mad), all of this despite little/no cool air. Our home is 82-85 degrees inside and St George will not cool down until October. Again we feel like we were swindled by your company. Our neighbors have have air source units that keep their homes very comfortable and their electric bills are not bad - How can we realize the promised payback when we are using obscene amounts of electricity and are not realizing any comfort whatsoever (except unlimited dangerously-hot hot water). At present we would like to do some traveling, however, given that the flooring and other items in the house will loose warranty coverage if they are in an environment that is too hot or low humidity, we are afraid of leaving (not only are we not comfortable in our home, we are afraid of leaving it - need to be here to manually reset the compressors multiple times per day) prior to having the additional air source heat pump system installed ($8000). Again, we feel like we were swindled by your company. Good companies treat customers with respect and honor the maxim - The Customer is Always Right. While not hopeful, I look forward to your response.
The suggestion has been made to put an air source condenser in the vapor line prior to entering the undersized loop field. I am told that recommendation came from your company. I would submit that your website indicate that your system may not work without the addition of less efficient add-ons despite the premium cost. |
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joe.ami
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| 07/05/2009 10:51 PM |
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Neo,
Who put in the ground loops? First or second guy? As Clark mentioned, no system would work well with undersized loops.
I do get your frustration, though I would focus on the installer first and equipment manufacturer last.
I've said many times, dealer has much more to do with your satisfaction than brand or type of equipment.
Before you spend $8,000 on new system I would work to fix this one.
The 2 ton may not require modification if the 5 ton works right.
j
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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neotobeo
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Posts:21
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| 07/06/2009 12:29 AM |
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Joe:
I appreciate your comments and for the most part would agree, however, sitting in our new home with internal temp currently 87.6 degrees (22:50 local time) and the stable of Vornado fans running to make it tolerable makes me want the company to stand behind its product and be accountable for its failure. Our current best option is the add-on air source heat pump system to make the home habitable and safe to leave unoccupied (the 5 ton unit now needs to be manually reset every 30-40 minutes; I unearthed the manifolds and, I apologize for not having extremely accurate diagnostic equipment, all of the vapor lines are equally hot multiple feet away from the manifold; similarly the liquid lines are all similar temp (hot) multiple feet from the manifold - this shortly after I start the unit to avoid the main living area from getting into the 90s and get some humidity in the air for the floors). It is not clear to me how adding 2 more loops to the 5 would take the unit from being able to run for 30 minutes and not cool the home to being able to run all day with full load and be able to set a desire temp in the 70s and have it do that without high pressure limiting. In my line of work (critical care medicine) many of the interventions have incredibly tight tolerances with microgram/kg/min changes leading to tremendous physiologic changes - I struggle to understand how the DX system could be that tightly designed. I know everyone feels like I am bashing the company - remember, I am a customer that spent a tremendous amount of time, effort, and resources to build our dream home and equip it with green technology - Including DX technology. Despite a tremendous outlay, the technology is not working. Of note, we bought the system before the real Tax Credits were available (remember the $500 rebate) - before dealers got into the business that otherwise wouldn't and shouldn't have (new rebates likely will find less experienced folks entering the business) - we have earned the right to voice our opinion/discuss our experience and demand the company make it right. Peter Drucker in more or less words indicated that businesses exist to take care of customers; No customers - Business; No Margin - No Mission. To maintain and grow the business they must provide a high level of service and a quality product with minimal variation. The fact that there is no hint of a customer service department or contact on the Earthlinked Site is telling; the failure to respond to my queries is telling.
Honestly, how much more time and resources would you put into this system to make it run? Thousands in drilling and loops? (Bias towards more not necessarily making it better - 5 increased to 7 resulting in a move along the heat transfer curve past an inflection point to sustainable heat transfer regardless of the load; again the tolerances issue). The air source unit (system) with returns, supplies, thermostat can be installed in 2 days and free us of needing to be here to protect the finishes.
Thanks for allowing me to vent - it is hot in here and it shouldn't be.
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jonr
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| 07/06/2009 8:42 AM |
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> all of the vapor lines are equally hot multiple feet away from the manifold; similarly the liquid lines are all similar temp (hot) multiple feet from the manifold
Poor grouting was a good possibility and this indicates that you don't have an issue of just some loops being bad. Of course all 5 loops could be equally poorly grouted (or not grouted at all).
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JackH
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| 07/06/2009 1:40 PM |
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Posted By jonr on 07/06/2009 8:42 AM
> all of the vapor lines are equally hot multiple feet away from the manifold; similarly the liquid lines are all similar temp (hot) multiple feet from the manifold
Poor grouting was a good possibility and this indicates that you don't have an issue of just some loops being bad. Of course all 5 loops could be equally poorly grouted (or not grouted at all).
I can agree with you on Grouting......no grout, voids in the grout, or using a grout that is not authorized by Earthlinked as a thermally enhanced grout could all pose a problem. As bentonite grouting a hole can kill a DX perform.
But as the OP "neotobeo" knows, and Clark, Joe and Earthlinked has acknowledged the systems installed is not the appropriate one for the area where it is installed. Installed is a V1 system compared to the V1.5 system. A 5 ton V1 system will have 1000' of copper in its field, where as a V1.5 will have 1400', a 40% increase.
So as a V1 systems works fantastic in my area at 45/50ºF. It's not going to work in a climate with a ground temperature of >55ºF, in the air conditioning cycle.
Yeah I know it's not right, but all things concerned, an air-forced desuperheater inline before the ground loop is not bad idea compared to the expense of a drilling rig. A 1/3 hp or a 1/4hp fan running
So where does the burden land on?
Homeowner.................No, but who knows
1st Dealer/installer.......( ) Gone?
2nd Dealer/installer......( ) are they an authorized Earthlinked Dealer?
Driller............................( ) how much was he informed about the system.
Local Sales Rep.............( )
Earthlinked...................No, but mostly likely
I hate seeing unsatisifed customers with geo on these forums, but especially DX Geo. Somewhere its somebody dropping the ball. Homeowner just wants a system that was promised to him and Earthlinked spells everything out in their technical manuals. So I'm leaning towards somewhere in the middle four. I hope everything can be worked out. Earthlinked is a fantastic product and uniquely designed equipment. You just have to follow the instructions.
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www.indoorcomfortsystemshvac.com |
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jonr
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Posts:335
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| 07/06/2009 2:21 PM |
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> I struggle to understand how the DX system could be that tightly designed
This is just opinion, but if 100'/ton loops work fantastic at 50F and you are at 55F, I agree that it is strange that the 5F difference would change the system from working well to shutting down. In fact, I would guess that 5F change in ground temp would only result in a minor ~5F change in loop temp.
Can you see the grouting of the ends of loops?
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geo fan
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| 07/06/2009 2:28 PM |
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HAVE YOU SOAKED THE FEILD YET!!
I agree that a 40% undersized feild is definitly the problem . but I disagree that the cust should settle for less then what he paid for. I would adress this issue a nicely as possible with the people you had a contract with , because ultimatly they are the only ones you have a recourse with . This may be a cost that has to absorbed by the installers insurance . while this might be a less then plesant course it may be the best available . also I would much rather see you running a garden hose ( if no soaker is available ) stick a pipe pvc pipe in the ground on top of the manafold and let it go nuts . |
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neotobeo
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Posts:21
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| 07/06/2009 3:12 PM |
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I have tried to soak the loops as best I can; no way to tell if the water is penetrating down into the earth around the loops. the water the pools in the manifold pit boils off pretty quickly and despite a few thousand gallons on and around the loops holes, no change in performance - if anything the unit shuts off more quickly than before.
Still waiting for a response from the company.
Joe:
I get that adding an additional loop to the 2 ton unit will improve its function - it only runs hot and high pressure limits a few times per day; I do not understand how adding 2 (or 20 for that matter) more loops to the 5 ton unit will help. Within minute of turning it on the liquid return line to the compressor is too hot to touch and the compressor fails (did this dozens of times yesterday) - I just shut both units off last night when the internal house temp got to 87 degrees and the units stood no chance of doing any cooling (running a few minutes and then failing - this when zoned only to our master bedroom - 400SF). I don't recall reading anywhere that the Earthlinked systems, while simple in design, require constant human monitoring to keep running. Since I have to be away from the home, I am being forced to add the reliable air source heat pump system to maintain some comfort and protect our new home's finishes (another $8000).
By the way: 87 degrees is a very uncomfortable temperature to try to get the kids to bed and then lay there sweating in our high-end home - we could have done that without spending the $50,000 on your system.
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