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videojoe Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:15
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| 06/19/2009 6:38 PM |
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| I just found your wonderful forum and have read everything that I could find here...
How much time is everyone spending from contact, bid and install. I have been thinking about this Geothermal option for awhile (last 6 months) but unfortunately we just today had the hvac guy leave as our ac just stopped working... Our 8 year old 3.5 ton outside unit needs to be replaced along with the inside coil unit (compressor is shot). The "guesstimate" at this time is $4000 to 5000.
Our all electric house bill runs from $200 to $300 per month (year round). Our house is 2100 sqft not counting the finished basement which stays pretty comfy year round as it is totally underground (it is also run off of the 3.5 ton system though we have all the vents closed to push the heat/ac upstairs). Our house is 25 years old "cedar sided" home and is heated with an "oil back up". We only burn about 300 gallons of oil per season as the heat pump runs until outside is temp is 35 or below... We had all of our windows replaced last year with very high efficiency units which seems to have kept our bills down.
I am not sure what to do as our hvac guy (knows someone that does Geothermal) estimates at least one month until a Geothermal would be installed... His guessimate would be $20000 to 30k... My wife almost fainted twice (price and timetable without ac). I am guessing that we should save about 50% with all of the various tax credits (Fed, Maryland and Montgomery County).
What does everyone think?
Anyone have a Geo contractor that they would recommend?
My boss lives in the same county and is ready to change as well so this would be a double job!!!
Thanks, Joe
josephlowery3rd@hotmail.com
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TechGromit Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:450

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| 06/19/2009 8:30 PM |
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When my geothermal system stopped working at the beginning of summer of 2008, it took me until October to get bids, find financing and finally get a replacement system installed. I however have two zones, so the upstairs zone helped keep the downstairs bareable. As for your situation, window A/C units could be a stop gap measure to keep your house cool enough until you get bids, financing and the installation completed.
Just to clarify your situation, you have an Air Source Heat pump that you use for cooling and heating until the temperature drops below 35 degrees and the oil furnace kicks in at that point, correct? And it's the heat pump that is currently broken, right? If so, that sounds like a pretty efficent setup already. The average heating oil used by home owners of that size house is between 1000 to 1200 gallons per year, 300 is very reasonable in my opinion. I question weather or not geothermal system can pay for itself over what you normally pay in heating each year. In my opinion with a replacement air source heat pump system with at least a SEER 16 / EER 12, that is your best option.
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ecobuilder Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:86
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| 06/19/2009 10:40 PM |
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consider the new Arcadia air source heat pumps. They have a two stage compressor system that lets them work down to zero at a COP of 3. They were designed and tested in Bangor Maine so unless your in a place that gets colder than that this might be a good option to look at. I recently installed a geothermal system and it does work great, but next time I am considering the Arcadia air source, especially if you already have the duct work in place, sounds like a much quicker and simplier install than the goethermal HP. The ground exchange is where the costs of geothermal are and here in MA it costs around $5K per ton for the vertical bore holes and piping. Open loops work even better if you have a really good clean water supply but you won't know for sure until after you drill the well. For my last project I used a closed horizontal slinky loop and the cost was much less, $6K for 3 tons of exchange field. We also had an open construction site without landscaping and all of the other stuff you have in an exsisiting house. heres a video of the slinky loop install. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=way5AvYpnR4&feature=channel_page
Tom Pittsley ecobuilder@aol.com www.eebt.org |
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"Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is." Jackson Brown |
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videojoe Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:15
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| 06/19/2009 10:44 PM |
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| That's kinda what I was thinking until I realized that the 4k to 5k fix for my current setup will only include the outside unit and the inside coil unit. The rest of the system, oil furnace, blower, etc... remains and could cost an additional 3 or 4k to replace.
That would bring me to 7 to 9k total, if the rest of the system
took a dump. This is what I think, if I understand correctly...
Fwiw... The rest of the system is 20+ years old... The oil used to be primary heat until 2001, when the previous owner replaced the outside ac only compressor with a new retro fitting heat pump that tied into the existing furnace.
My thoughts were if I could keep my Geothermal around 20k or so, that the tax credits would make my actual costs somewhere in the 10k +/- giving me a brand new system. We are only staying in the house 5 to 7 years which obviously doesn't come close to breaking even, but I figured we'd make it up or more when we go to sell...
But I am afraid we could not wait 2 or 3 months for the install.
I have an equity line with a zero balance, so financing is not the issue. Of course all of our windows are casements so window air units won't work...
I do agree that right now I am leaning toward just fixing what's broken now...
Is there anything else I am missing? |
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TechGromit Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:450

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| 06/19/2009 11:48 PM |
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Posted By videojoe on 06/19/2009 10:44 PM ... We are only staying in the house 5 to 7 years which obviously doesn't come close to breaking even, but I figured we'd make it up or more when we go to sell...
But I am afraid we could not wait 2 or 3 months for the install.
I have an equity line with a zero balance, so financing is not the issue. Of course all of our windows are casements so window air units won't work...
I do agree that right now I am leaning toward just fixing what's broken now...
Is there anything else I am missing?
A
high Efficiency heating/cooling system does not necessarily translate into a
higher house value; you have to find someone who appreciates what a geothermal
system really is to get a good return on your investment. Most people are so focused
on the price; they often forget that spending a little more will save them in
the long run. Case in point, most of what the big box stores sells (Home
Depot / Lowes) is low quality for low price. My parents went through two hot
water heaters in Five years they brought from Home Depot, a plumber friend said
Home Depot sells stuff for the lowest price, cause most of it's crap. A well
made water heater from a pumping supply house will cost more, but lasts a lot
longer.
They do make air conditioner for casement windows, they might be a little more
pricey, but if you can live with only cooling a few rooms, it's might be a good
alternative.
So let's run the numbers here,
Option #1 replace the entire system with a Geothermal system, I'm assuming
closed loop, based on the 20 to 30k price tag. Figuring 50% rebates the system
ends up costing you 15k worse case, assuming a 30k system. (I'm assuming
your state is offering you some kind of incentive, since the Federal rebate is
only 30% of the cost of the system) Comparing your new system with your old,
assuming Oil is $4 a gallon, and you use 300 gallons a year, the cost would be
$1,200, this assumes your electric bill does not increase running the new geo
system. Number of years to break even, 8.3
Option #2 Replace only the Air Source Heat Pump with a high efficiency Air
Source Heat Pump. Cost 5k. You will probably see a modest savings on your
electric bill, but nothing major. (Federal rebate, 30% up to $1,500) So your
cost is $3,500 with rebates.
Option #3 Replace the Air Source heat Pump AND the outdated Oil system for 9k.
This yields you a modest savings on your electric bill, but replacing the
outdated oil furnace which range in efficiency anywhere from 56 to 70% with a
new high efficiency oil system which are 90%+ efficient could save you 20% or more
on your oil usage. So instead of using 300 gallons a year, you could use 240
gallons a year instead. (Federal rebate, 30% up to $1,500 for the ASHP AND up
to 30% up to $1,500 on the oil system. You'll have to check with the IRS, I'm not
sure if you can collect on both) So your cost here is $6,300 with rebates.
My
recommendation? Ask the heating guy to check out the oil system, see it's it's
at end of life. If he says it good to go for another 5 years, I'd just get the
ASPH done, since your not keeping the house anyway. If worse comes to worse,
you can have it changed out later. If not get the oil system done too. In my opinion,
your saving isn't going to be major here by switching to a geothermal system
and there no guarantee that it's going to increase the value of your house. If this was an all oil heated house where you were sucking down 1,200+ gallons a oil a year, at $4 a gallon, that's over $4,800 a year. In that situation, changing to Geo certainly makes sense.
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videojoe Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:15
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| 06/20/2009 1:50 AM |
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| WOW!!!
You guys know your stuff...
I was told by the oil tech who did this years oil tuneup that the whole oil side was in really good shape. He did some sort of test and came up with an efficiency rating in the low 80s...
He attributed the oil furnaces good health to it only being a back up unit. In fact we were told a few years back that it only needed servicing every other year due to its limited use.
Maryland offers 1.5k and our county (Montgomery) an additional 5k... so I'm told...
The housing market in our area has dropped but only by 10 to 20 percent. We live less than 30 mins from DC.
Geothermal would actually be a big selling point for our area as it has the reputation for being on the Tree Hugger side of things... :0)
On another note, the hvac guy who came today recommended a heat pump from a company called Arco (sp?) any opinions?
He also mentioned that his partial outside and inside coil compressor 4k to 5k priced project might not be tax credit worthy, since it did not include the blower and other components. Does this sound right?
If I am reading everything right, it may be cheaper to replace everything - especially if my partial repair doesn't include a tax credit....
This whole thing is starting to make my head spin... |
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joe.ami Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1418
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| 06/20/2009 6:43 AM |
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Okay VJ, take a deep breath..... Here's my thoughts: -Your "HVAC guy knows someone who knows geo". I submit to you that you don't need your HVAC guy at all if you go geo, you need a geo guy. You darn sure don't need someone who can't tell you wether their product will qualify for tax credits. -Check out this site and the international ground source heat pump association (IGSHPA) website for installers and let them sell you on the idea. -I agree with TG that payback may be marginal at best for you. While geo saves money on cooling, it really kicks the most savings on the heating side, and you have already been running a heat pump most of the time. -I also think we need independant verification that the compressor is dead on existing system. 8ish years old is not a spring chicken, but .... -Never mind Arcadia. -If a geo pro or airsource pro convinces you that they have the best plan for you, and they can't do the install right away ask them how they intend to keep you cool while you wait. Most of us have a few window units in the barn or would invest in a freestanding console that can be ducted to your window (about 3 bills at Sams Club) to get a 20K job. We also have hooked geo up as open loop from time to time as a stop gap. -Accept bids from no one who doesn't take the time to measure your home and perform a manual J heat loss calculation. -Know that either system has tax credits available (new oil burner as well). Educate your self on these. Geo might be cheaper with the local contributions you mentioned. -If you do stay with air source, tell the tree huggers they can embrace that as well since it uses the same coal as a geo most of the time. Or if you ditch the Oil burner for electric auxilliary, it would use the same coal all the time.
The most important thing is to transfer your stress onto the shoulders of those who desire your business.....i.e. "Why should I buy that kind of system?", "Why should I buy it from you?", "how quickly will it pay for itself?"...... The best brand is.......whatever the contractor with the best references carries. Customer satisfaction is most affected by the contractor you hire. Check references. Once you get bids from competent pros, let us know what you come up with. Good Luck, Joe |
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Just a Mechanic; Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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videojoe Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:15
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| 06/26/2009 2:14 PM |
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Okay, I have had a couple of quotes from the 2 oil based hvac companies (they both obviously do heat pump only designs as well) as well as Hottel who does all the above plus Geo.
As it turns out, our current Oil/Heat pump hybrid systems works out pretty well vs any of the new systems. As best as I can figure, we currently spend between $100 to $200 per month year round to heat or cool the house. Our average total electric bill runs about $200 to $300.
A total replacement oil/heat pump hybrid with a 15 seer condenser will run between ($8000 to $9000). Unfortunately, none of the oil based systems offer tax credits.
Changing just the condenser (only)to a standard freon based system would be about $2800. This would be a 13 seer unit at best.
Changing condenser, plus new inside coil and replacing freon with current refridgerant ($4000). This would be 14 seer.
I also thought about Arcadia or other super efficiency Heat Pump only options but was told by a few bidders that it would cost about $3000 to remove my oil tank, etc...
Lastly, I have pasted the GEO quote below. Tax credit is 30% plus $5000 local.
Here are three options: 1. Earth Link ( DX ) with Coil using old furnace and Desuperheater on existing water heater Total Price $ 23,600 ($11520 net) 2. Climate Master closed loop with Coil using old furnace and Desuperheater on existing water heater Total price $ 22,500 ($10750 net) 3. Air Source heat pump only, 10 year parts $ 2,880.00
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TechGromit Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:450

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| 06/26/2009 2:38 PM |
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Posted By videojoe on 06/26/2009 2:14 PM
A total replacement oil/heat pump hybrid with a 15 seer condenser will run between ($8000 to $9000). Unfortunately, none of the oil based systems offer tax credits.
Changing just the condenser (only)to a standard freon based system would be about $2800. This would be a 13 seer unit at best.
Changing condenser, plus new inside coil and replacing freon with current refridgerant ($4000). This would be 14 seer.
....
3. Air Source heat pump only, 10 year parts
$ 2,880.00
I find it difficult to beleive that at least one of the systems for a oil/heat pump system do not qualify for a tax break / write off. I carefully read the energy star website and I don't see anything that would suggest otherwise. Also it appears a Oil system would quality so long as it heats your hot water as well. Qoute "A heating unit that meets this definition and also provides hot water for domestic or other use may be considered a furnace for purposes of this agreement." Of course the final authority would be the IRS on any tax issue.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3
Repairs of course wouldn't qualify for any tax credits, only compete system replacements.
If these are your final numbers for an installation (barring any new tax breaks you qualify for) then I'd say Geo is a no brainer. With a 3k difference, Geo would certain pay off in the in the long run.
Not sure how much sence it makes if your selling in 5 years. Than again, the way the housing market is, prices may not recover to a good ten years, you could be in your house a long longer than your planning to.
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videojoe Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:15
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| 06/26/2009 3:04 PM |
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Adding an oil water heater would bump us up an additional $2000 minimal...
I guess the whole concept of writing a $23,000 check, when a few weeks ago our house was cool and comfy - is probably the biggest issue. When our system died, I figured $500 or so would cover it... not. And of course the 23k assumes we keep the old furnace as an air handler, etc...
The Geo guy seemed to like the Geo/Oil hybrid plan and seemed unphased by our 20plus year old furnace (oil).
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TechGromit Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:450

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| 06/26/2009 3:13 PM |
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Posted By videojoe on 06/26/2009 3:04 PM
The Geo guy seemed to like the Geo/Oil hybrid plan and seemed unphased by our 20plus year old furnace (oil).
I guess there nothing wrong with keeping the oil furnace. If it was me I'd just replace the entire system with Geo. If you going to keep the oil furnace make sure the geo system can handle the entire house's load by it's self, this way you can run the oil furance into the ground and just disconnect it and toss it when it dies. I can't see the point of replacing it later with a new oil system if you have Geo already.
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oldcars Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:2
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| 07/03/2009 10:25 PM |
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| Why is it that everyone talks about $20,000 to $30,000 for a geo thermal system? I have a geothermal system and I have less than $5,000 in the whole system. I live in Prescott,AZ at 5300 ft elevation and use evacuated solar tubes to heat a 500 gallon insulated tank that is buried in the ground. I use the water from the tank to feed the geo system and through most of the winter the tank is between 70 F and 90 F get that from your ground loops. My house is really tight and well insulated. The sq ft is 1480 and the geo unit is 1 1/2 tons. I had lots of people tell me that it wouldn't work, but guess what???? |
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neotobeo Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:21
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| 07/03/2009 11:29 PM |
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| Based on our experience and cash out of pocket for a non-functioning Earthlinked System and a partially functioning system - go with the Air Source, make your wife happy with the quick installation, and save the money and headache. |
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videojoe Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:15
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| 07/04/2009 3:45 AM |
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| Well, after crunching all the geo and non geo numbers, we decided to install a brand new heat pump and oil furnace hybrid. We finally found an oil heat pump combo that will give us the $1500 fed tax credit plus another $350 rebate from Carrier... Not sure if MD or our local county will kick in anything, but our end cost will be around $7k and that includes a whole house humidifier and air filter...
Frankly, putting out $22 to $24k for Geo and still using our old oil furnace as an air handler and then having to cross our fingers for all 3 tax credits to pan out at years end, pushed me back over to the more conventional. Apparently, our state and county may have already exceeded their tax credit caps for this year. Plus, our AC has been down for almost 3 weeks now... :-O
The new system will be a 15 seer HP plus a 120k btu oil furnace with a vari speed blower. That replaces our 9 seer/85k present combo. Unfortunately, we had to go with a 120k oil furnace, because anything less voids the tax credit. Makes no sense but those are the rules...
I want to thank everyone for their time and input. I was really hoping to be in the Geo family!!!
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joe.ami Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1418
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| 07/05/2009 11:08 PM |
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Posted By videojoe on 07/04/2009 3:45 AM I want to thank everyone for their time and input. I was really hoping to be in the Geo family!!! Many geo contractors are not exclusively geo as it is not right for every application. Not comfy with the oil furnace sizing. ASHP's have their own tax credit. Good Luck, Joe
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Just a Mechanic; Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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TechGromit Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:450

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| 07/06/2009 10:43 AM |
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Posted By oldcars on 07/03/2009 10:25 PM Why is it that everyone talks about $20,000 to $30,000 for a geo thermal system? I have a geothermal system and I have less than $5,000 in the whole system. I live in Prescott,AZ at 5300 ft elevation and use evacuated solar tubes to heat a 500 gallon insulated tank that is buried in the ground. I use the water from the tank to feed the geo system and through most of the winter the tank is between 70 F and 90 F get that from your ground loops. My house is really tight and well insulated. The sq ft is 1480 and the geo unit is 1 1/2 tons. I had lots of people tell me that it wouldn't work, but guess what???? A. I wager you system was a Do-it-yourself install, HVAC isn't do-it-yourself for most people.
B. The winter's in Prescott, AZ are fairly mild, not all parts of the country enjoy such mild winters.
C. Your running a 1 1/2 ton system, most people have 3 to 4 ton systems, it's doubtful you could even get the Geothermal system equipment (uninstalled) for less then 5k wholesale. D. New contruction is always easier to make tighter houses that use the benifits of solar gain. Most likely you planned to build a tight house and the roof in the ideal direction to the sun for maxium solar gain. Older homes do not have this advanatage, the roof might not even be facing the right direction, let alone be the correct angle to maximize solar gain.
E. The Farther south you go, the better solar gain is and Arizona is pretty far south when campared with the bulk of the country.
F. While your tank in the ground method may work for you, it's highly doubtful such a install would work elsewhere. The solar gain would be too small to offset the heat lost the system would experience at night and proably during the day too. (Assuming the house is set up correctly for max solar gains)
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videojoe Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:15
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| 07/06/2009 4:22 PM |
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What are your concerns? Please don't be shy...
The new oil furnace seems a bit large (120k vs 85k) but we looked it up and the 120k oil combo was the smallest for the credit... The list was very specific... |
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TechGromit Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:450

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| 07/06/2009 7:28 PM |
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I don't see a problem with it, if you oversized the geothermal system / heat pump, the system would cool too quickly for proper dehumification. I don't know of a problem with heating up things too quickly. So long as your rebate offsets the additional cost of the bigger furnace, it's fine.
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joe.ami Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1418
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| 07/07/2009 10:25 PM |
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Posted By videojoe on 07/06/2009 4:22 PM What are your concerns? Please don't be shy...
The new oil furnace seems a bit large (120k vs 85k) but we looked it up and the 120k oil combo was the smallest for the credit... The list was very specific...
Not shy at all. Your old heat pump was 3.5 ton and handled most of your heating requirements. Old furnace was 85K and handled all of the heating requirements. Why would anyone suggest that you go 1/2 again as large for a part time heater (furnace) vs put extra money into the most of the time heater (heat pump) which can also qualify for the same $1,500. It's bad advice and borne of ignorance (the installers, not yours). It may also be to big for 3.5 tons of duct work which could cause short cycling, efficiency loss and shortened lifespan. The unit could also cycle on high limit and fail to heat much at all (these are worst cas scenarios but valid concerns). You asked, now I hope you ask your contractor my questions. If you are not satisfied with his/her answers, then keep shopping. Good luck, Joe |
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Just a Mechanic; Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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TechGromit Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:450

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| 07/09/2009 10:32 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 07/07/2009 10:25 PM
Why would anyone suggest that you go 1/2 again as large for a part time heater (furnace) vs put extra money into the most of the time heater (heat pump) which can also qualify for the same $1,500. It's bad advice and borne of ignorance (the installers, not yours). It may also be to big for 3.5 tons of duct work which could cause short cycling, efficiency loss and shortened lifespan. The unit could also cycle on high limit and fail to heat much at all (these are worst cas scenarios but valid concerns). You asked, now I hope you ask your contractor my questions. If you are not satisfied with his/her answers, then keep shopping. Good luck, Joe I think the whole point of the oil furnace is the Heat pump efficency drastically drops off once the temperature hits 35 degrees, while the heat pump could employ heating strips to allow it to function at colder temperatures, resistance electric heat is much more expensive to operate then burning oil. I guess you'll have to compare the cost of installing and running heat strips on the coldest of winter days with the cost of installing a new oil furnace AND the cost of oil to operate the furnance on the coldest of winter days. Hmm put into those terms I would think any cost recovery would be extensive. Maybe Joe has a point here. You might be better off eleiminating the oil furnace entirely and getting heat strips for the heat pump.
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